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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1713747742642.png (1.98 MB, 2801x1639, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.1831705[Reply]

How can the Socialist economic calculation problem be solved? Didn't Ludwig von Mises say that socialism has a major problem that has something to do with information or something? Apparently it's a big problem capitalists seem to have with socialism, and part of the reason why many of them oppose it.

Pic rel is not a reflection of my political views.
25 posts and 4 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1832661

>>1831885
Exactly this. Capitalists' opposition to socialism is for no other reason than pure self-interest, regardless of how they intellectualize it. And why shouldn't they seek to uphold a system that benefits them? It's the same reason why proletarians become socialists — because it is in *their* material interests.

 No.1832879

>>1831872
Prior to contemporary cybersocialism, what were other attempts to respond to the calculation problem critique? I'm already aware of Kantorovich, and have heard Dobb and Neurath brought up in passing.

 No.1833398

>>1832134
Who outright said this?

 No.1833658

>>1831705
I recall this text about it.

https://www.haerdin.se/blog/2021/06/29/a-critique-of-economic-calculation-in-the-socialist-commonwealth/

 No.1833754

>>1832879
lange-lerner model also comes to mind though cockshott actually addresses this and previous models in his works. just read some of this pdfs


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 No.1833385[Reply]

I started reading his "History and class consciousness", and it looks very convincing so far. Why is he apparently foundational to "western marxism", which was an utter failure? Is there something reactionary and opportunist in his work?
16 posts and 6 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1833436

>>1833429
But have you attained the 18th level of enlightenment

 No.1833442


You know nothing Jon Blow

 No.1833451

>>1833389
What does it mean to be anti-humanist?

 No.1833454

>>1833451
Choke people

 No.1833510

>>1833451
it means you're against humanism


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 No.1789401[Reply]

People do not understand the Luddites, they claim Luddites rejected "progress" in fact they revolted against their subordination into the emerging class of industrial proletarians, enslaved both to modern mechanical terrors and their erudite and unscrupulous owners
There are technologies that can and must be redeployed like networked tech, communications, and computer algorithms, technologies that must be reconfigured like modern agriculture, and energy infrastructure, technologies that must be heavily reduced in usage down to purely necessary tasks like plastics, and technologies with no ethical or safe usage like nuclear weapons and automated weapons system that should just be abolished entirely

People here will deny it, lots of leftists are blinded by the panopticon.

In the modern world, those who reject so called technological innovation and "progres" are trash, but those that submit to the technological terror of the bourgeoisie are lower than that! And that's why the Luddites were true heroes.
11 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1789924

>>1789635
fuck, i know for a fact this is going to become real discourse in 20 years and it makes me furious

 No.1791468

>>1789455
How are you going to stop others from developing said technology?
You wanna become grand Overlord of the planet?

 No.1791491

>>1791468
Why do you assume I want to control what other people do?
What technology is even produced with a single input?
Even stone tools had to be developed over millennia

 No.1833428

>The Luddites were true heroes
I agree

 No.1833441

File: 1713895323781.pdf (45.24 KB, 192x255, le-clodo-clodo-speaks (1).pdf)

>>1789401
Everyone knows.
Also, read CLODO.
The similarities are enough for a modern re-telling:


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 No.1833267[Reply]

Haven't seen a thread from News Anon 3.0 in a bit. Last thread was 04/18. Not to be greedy, but I'm a big fan of their coverage. Anyone online knowledgeable about their disappearance? Thanks.

 No.1833268

>>1833267
He said he was going to be away for some time, a week or more

 No.1833270

File: 1713880553426.png (100.41 KB, 1014x326, imagem_2024-04-23_10553418….png)

>>>/leftypol/1828559

 No.1833275

I ate thos food

 No.1833280

>>1833270
Appreciate it. Speedy recovery, News Anon.


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 No.1793036[Reply]

Why are reactionaries so obsessed with repealing the social and cultural changes of the 1960s? Even today you listen to turds like Chris Rufo go on about 1968 was the year american succumbed to cultural Marxism, or at least began it's long march to such.

>The politics of the Gingrich revolution of the nineties are locked in a strange obsession with the politics they purport to repeal-the politics of the late sixties. House Majority Leader Dick Armey, Republican of Texas, forthrightly set out the conventional loathing: "To me all the problems began in the sixties." But the troops of the New Right are far more nourished by the sixties than they appreciate. The sixties provide the right both an evil to extirpate and a libertarian ethic to emulate.

<In the words of Speaker Newt Gingrich, Ph.D., American history breaks in half in the sixties. During the years 1607 through 1965, Gingrich said not long after assuming the leadership of the House, "There is a core pattern to American history. Here's how we did it until the Great Society messed everything up: don't work, don't eat; your salvation is spiritual; the government by definition can't save you; governments are into maintenance and all good reforms are into transformation." Then came the deluge, Gingrich continued: "From 1965 to 1994, we did strange and weird things as a country. Now we're done with that and we have to recover. The counterculture is a momentary aberration in American history that will be looked back upon as a quaint period of Bohemianism brought to the national elite"-the notorious "counterculture McGoverniks," an elite who "taught self-indulgent, aristocratic values without realizing that if an entire society engaged in the indulgences of an elite few, you could tear the society to shreds."

>Gingrich's generation of Republican first-termers, like Ronald Reagan's ideologues before them, toss the word "revolution" around rather lightly. The collapse of communism hardly left them complacent, but rather pumped up their sense that America trembles on the edge of a chasm. Thus Irving Kristol in 1993: "There is no 'after the Cold War' for me. So far from having ended, my cold war has increased in intensity, as sector after sector has been ruthlessly corrupted by the liberal ethos. . . . Now that the other 'Cold War' is over, the real cold war has begun. Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.1831065

>>1793091
The concept of natives resisting a colonizing ideology meets w/ "grifters gonna grift" & "subversives gonna subvert". One could go on about NPC's, impressionable youths, organized religions, psychophysiology, etc

 No.1831156

>>1831065
meds

 No.1831205

ameriKKKan thread

 No.1831213

>>1830882
yeah, this such an ameriKKKan thread. the 60's fucking sucked here in Brazil, the USA supported a military coup and and we STILL haven't recovered from that (Bolsonaro government and its consequences…)

 No.1833164

>>1793091

a lot of the people who have heard of emo and furries etc have also heard of punk; a large portion of them probably decided it wasn't for them and didn't participate so it's not a very good analogy. also ignoring that emo came out of punk.

i for one would say that conservatives are somewhat correct in saying they are the new punk rock. punk wasn't just Crass, it was also a lot of shit like Jim Goad writing pro-rape zines.


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 No.1822904[Reply]

If neoclassical economics were completely true, how would one go about constructing a planned economy such that:
1. there are no significant shortages or surpluses of goods
2. goods and services are distributed more or less according to utility
3. investment in new industries and firms is done at least as efficiently as in stock markets

I've read Cockshott and been really intrigued by his model, but it seems to use the labor theory of value as a load-bearing assumption. I don't want to argue against this theory, but I do want to ask a question concerning the counterfactual world where the mainstream models of economics are more or less correct. What would a planned economy need to be able to do in order to meet these requirements in this world? What would be the most effective way to direct production? Pic unrelated.
42 posts and 10 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1832825

>>1832241
>You do know that *Capital* is a warning, not an instruction manual, right?
No one is suggesting it was, however Marx did propose labour vouchers in the critique of the gotha program:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

<Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. The phrase "proceeds of labor", objectionable also today on account of its ambiguity, thus loses all meaning.

<What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.

<Here, obviously, the same principle prevails as that which regulates the exchange of commodities, as far as this is exchange of equal values. Content and form are changed, because under the altered circumstances no one canPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

 No.1832839

>>1832610
This is sort of true, though you would need people to oversee the planning system, as well as carry out the plan - implying there would be some degree of managerial oversight.

 No.1832991

>>1832595
Nearly all socialist planning is, at current, fiction. I can't respond to a broad-based charge of being "austrian" (except by restating that generally Austrians believe planning doesn't work, I believe planning works but isn't particularly liberatory, and that most attempts at participation either won't work as intended - the ol' anarchist discussion circle - or aren't democratic - representative democracy, voting with your wallet, sortition…) and I obviously can't give more specific critiques without discussing a specific system.

Now you might say that's fine, it's better than what we've got now - probably true - but we wouldn't pretend for a moment that a revolution in human freedom had been delivered by a hypothetical social democratic country with 60% public ownership and a chunk of private industry's shares being held by workers, all co-ordinated by a planning board, rather than a difference-of-degree in a system where you're still basically yoked to churning out commodities and services that you don't care about (perhaps each month you even have to attend a boring meeting you never speak at where you discuss whether to make more red or blue widgets…) so that you can exchange that toil for access the ones you do care about and the line can go up.

>>1832608
It's not necessarily that they'd be fucking with you, it's just a conflict of interests. If completion of a plan demands overtime, but you don't want to work overtime, you're in conflict.

>>1832610
Being told what to do by a computer is about the only thing I can imagine more miserable than being told what to do by someone else.

 No.1833029

>>1832991
>I believe planning works but isn't particularly liberatory
if "liberatory" for you means the total abolition of all hierarchy, then I doubt it's actually possible. This is one of those issues where I actually agree with the Bordigists - the abolition of commodity production will necessarily involve hierarchy to some extent - something I'm not especially bothered by. I'm yet to see anyone make a clear and coherent proposal for a system that involves the elimination of both commodity production and hierarchy at the same time. It's always the same vague anarchist "gift economy" shit, something that I think is untenable and would rapidly devolve back into commodity production.

>Now you might say that's fine, it's better than what we've got now - probably true - but we wouldn't pretend for a moment that a revolution in human freedom had been delivered by a hypothetical social democratic country with 60% public ownership and a chunk of private industry's shares being held by workers, all co-ordinated by a planning board, rather than a difference-of-degree in a system where you're still basically yoked to churning out commodities and services that you don't care about
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

>If completion of a plan demands overtime, but you don't want to work overtime, you're in conflict.
Reduction of labour hours is a central feature of pretty much every proposal for a communist system I've seen, I find it more likely that the plan would be updated to reflect the need for more time rather than overtime being forced upon people. Not having the treat of bankruptcy hanging over the heads of branches of industry makes this possible, unlike today where missing deadlines forces overtime to occur.

 No.1833154

>>1832991
planning is a tool that can be used for many purposes. obviously we desire to use it for workers' liberation. that's a given
>Being told what to do by a computer
literally can't happen. no machine can order a human around; this is a central point in Capital. what appears to be relations between things is really relations between people
someone will be telling you what to do, and we should desire that someone to be the final consumer (needs), since all other forms of labour would be unproductive and we should not squander labour power
the role of the planning system is to facilitate the fulfillment of needs, preferably without squandering natural resources or labour power. no mechanism has been put forth so far that can do this besides calculation in kind


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 No.1804259[Reply]

I'm sitting in a room where a socialist and a libertarian are arguing about the future. I thought i'd put the libertarians current argument to yall.

Inequality isn't such a big deal because soon (he says in the next 30 years), robotics and ai will make labour unecessary. This will culminate in an insane decrease in the cost of creating housing and pretty much every other manufactured good. This will mean that society will have to change extremely radically most peoples labour will not be necessary. Most people will not have to work because things will be so abundant, this means that people are going to be able to live much more comfortably because they will have more free time and extremely low cost commodities because of the cost of labour has been eliminated from the cost of commodities.
Inequality will be recalibrated to something reasonable in the near future because of robotics and ai.
30 posts and 5 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1832824

>>1832823
Forgot the title:
Big AI: Cloud infrastructure dependence and the industrialisation of artificial intelligence

 No.1832856

you all are trying to fit this into like 2 possibilities one where AI is literally downfall of humanity and the other where its another nothingburger and a meme

have you considered the possibility that machine learning when applied just makes production of things cheaper? its an on going battle for corpos to make things cheaper fulfilling the falling rate of profit prophecy.

my prediction for america for machine learning is literally at some point enough workers are gonna be fired and america has to covert to a fucked up amalgamation of capitalism and socialism that we will be convinced is for our own good just so that the citizens wont fucking tear each other apart

 No.1832868

The cost of producing a reasonable standard of living for everybody in the world is already perfectly doable. We just don't do it because it's not profitable. The poorest people in the world can't pay for it. The wealthy people and countries aren't interested in paying for it out of charity. The global capitalists want to keep things the way they are because they make the most profit by hyper-exploiting the poorest parts of the population. The inequality and poverty is a feature not a bug.

 No.1832870

at my job, the retard CEO + shareholders declared my job "automated" out of pure optimism even though it was still absolutely needed. Instead of firing me, they put me on the dev team, where I got to witness first hand how few of their goals was actually being met by AI. First of all, AI absolutely still requires humans to collect and curate large training sets of data. AI can't do this by itself. When it does try to do this by itself, the consequences are disastrous. Second of all, they didn't actually automate my job. The dev team just promised the shareholders a bunch of bullshit and then the profit hungry porkies acted on instinct and fired a bunch of people they still would have needed for a very long time, thinking they could simply plug the hole left by us with a bunch of trash in the mean time, in order to keep the shit afloat. Third of all they've already hired a bunch of people to do what I used to do (having realized their mistake), only without any experienced person (me) to train the new people, the new people aren't an adequate replacement for me, even though they are more numerous and expensive. I'm never going back because I make more money on the dev team even though I do way less.

This is the power of the "AI" meme.

 No.1832881

File: 1713841447694.jpg (31.25 KB, 679x386, nothing ever happens.jpg)

>>1804259
Don't make me tap the sign.


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 No.1829062[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

In this thread we will prove that we are not revisionists of a Lassallean (protestant work ethic), Schachtmannist (campism that derisively refers to developing economies while defending first world economies), US Nationalist/Kautskyist (FatSocs or MAGACommunists), Liberal Reformist (vooting over direct action), Opportunist Demagogue (people who take advantage of peoples' fears of minorities or the oppressed to gain power), or some other variety of slimy Revisionism that needs to be culled from the board.
132 posts and 31 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1831718

>>1829062
I read Michael Heinrich and watch Cockshott so I can increase my brain power to 1000%. Soon the Miami-Dade PTA will TREMBLE

 No.1831734

>>1831716
Critical support for Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan against Western imperialism. I mean its better for Asians to be ruled by Asians and Germany has the anti-colonial Free Arab Legion. We must support them comrade!

 No.1832357

>>1831715
Hammers and Sickles are though.

 No.1832369

>>1831715
Why not a variation of the Maegnolyun? Make it red with hammers and sickles.
https://maegnolyun.com/

 No.1832712

I support a dictatorship of the proletariat by establishing a socialist republic. Also that PatSocs/MAGAComs deserve the same fate as the billionaire class for being cryptofascists.


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 No.1810024[Reply][Last 50 Posts]

So we know the right wing has their dogwhistles, i.e. "Christ is King" and "It's Okay to be White."
How about a Socialist dogwhistle? Something that will trigger rightoids, something that really hurts: reminding them that the soul does not exist, and that consciousness is an illusion. They HATE this, it threatens everything about right wing ideology much more than they are willing to admit. This is why they fought it fiercely in the 20th Century, making sure to appeal to the "godlessness" of communism. Ultimately I believe there is too much idealism around these days. You see it in things like psychedelic culture, wellness culture, tech culture (and their idiotic quest for "immortality") and surprise! they are all becoming very reactionary!

Trigger the idealists. "Matter is the fundamental substance in nature." It's the perfect combination of disarming and bewildering that gave "its okay to be white" and the AOK hand their power. "Matter is the fundamental substance in nature. Make it a meme. Marx would be proud. That's where it all began, after all. Before his ingenious theory of Dialectical Materialism, before Scientific Socialism, before the Communist Manifesto, there was Materialism.
255 posts and 49 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1831442

File: 1713733318618.png (22.88 KB, 500x314, anfem.png)

>>1830896
A warrior in an eternal struggle against wheelchair ramps.

 No.1831451

>>1831098
Not from "today".

 No.1831519

>>1831442
wait i agree w this

 No.1832629

>>1830953
Literally, “I understand” vs “so, that’s the case” (literally: originally it was that way, with emphasis on originally).

 No.1832655

>>1810024
>Christ is King
Finish it with "of the Jews"

They freak out and start crazy wewuzzing wall of texts conspiracy theories how da joos are not real joos and actual joos are aryan and shiet


File: 1713664626351.png (5.42 MB, 2048x1365, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.1830748[Reply]

the manufacturing processes whereby whole foods are converted into junk foods is not a "value added" process like most manufacturing processes. This processing actually destroys nutrients and renders the food less healthy. Therefore it is a "value subtracted" process and the labor used to process these foods into junk food has negative value. It is only the cultural superstructure of respecting junk food and finding it to be subjectively "tasty" that allows this to happen. The creation of junk food destroys the use value of nutrition during manufacturing, and yet the bourgeois corporations charge a higher price for the junk food than its constituent whole foods. Aside from cigarettes and alcohol, I can think of no other area in the economy that functions this way.
30 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

 No.1832509

>>1832500
You're comparing raw ingredients to a ready to be consumed product. The raw ingredients provide no utility without the means to cook them. Comparing raw materials that must be worked upon to get an end product can't be compared to an end product.

 No.1832530

>>1832509
It depends on the food. Grains usually require some processing, but fruit and vegetables can just be eaten as they are.

 No.1832580

>>1830783
>that puts more labor into it, increasing the exchange value.
OP here, I thought it was labour power (the commodity that the worker sells) and not labour itself that gives things value

 No.1832585

>>1831417
Right but we all know that the labor power has to be useful in order to create a commodity with exchange value. That's why there is no socially necessary labor time in creating mud pies. So why is the exchange value going up with junk food when the labor power is making a commodity that is less useful than its whole food constituents?

 No.1832587

>>1831606
>. Most of the value-added stuff in food production relates to making the product either more shelf-stable or more appealing as a commodity. The additives like coloring and flavoring make people want to eat it more. The processing that removes the "impurities" helps keep the food from going bad for longer, since the more nutritious parts removed (like the bran in grains removed to make the flour) also spoils fastest. There is a use-value to these alterations, just not from the perspective of public health.
OP here. Thank you. this is a good answer.


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