No.1831713
>That's not to say you cannot build an economy without price signals, but if you're getting rid of prices/profit, you need to set up different channels for supply/demand signals to propagate. I believe this is possible without (and much more desirable than) centralizing the entire economy.
>That I think is the nut of the issue and where many people go wrong. There is absolutely some truth to the notion that market driven price signals make certain elements of resource allocation easier, but people often take an incredibly simplistic read and land on the idea that this all somehow makes central planning principally impossible rather than merely less efficient in this one particular regard and presuming full centralization of nearly the entire economy.
No.1831721
>there is a significant difference between "socialist economics fundamentally do not work because ECP" and "socialism is less efficient than free markets".
No.1831877
Both sides take "social planning" to believe "there will be a government and it will oversee every step of production everywhere" for some reason.
Looking at you, Cockshott and fans.
No.1831880
>>1831705Every major capitalist economy needed goverment interference, they only exist because of intervention and protectionism.
No.1831884
>>1831880Not even that, you literally can't have a market without currency, which can only be minted by a state. Bitcoion is a cope and doesn't function as a medium of exchange.
No.1831885
>>1831705Nah, they just want to give their opposition to socialism not-greed-based scientific-sounding explanation. In reality they don't believe their own argument
No.1831888
>>1831705I don't know if that's what Mises said in that quote because I've never read him but that quote assumes that money can exist without state which is wrong. Currency as currency must be minted by a sovereign in order to have legitimacy and stability. This is why Rome minted money and basics every other state with developed commerce. In other words money cannot exist without government "interference" because money arises from the state itself.
No.1831892
>>1831888But companies print their own money from time to time
No.1831898
>>1831892What companies print their own money? You realize that printing cash outside the state is highly illegal? It's called counterfeit. If private companies had money printers you'd see a massive federal shut down the likes you've never seen before with long term sentences.
No.1831911
>>1831877prove that's what cockshott thinks
No.1831913
>>1831898https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scripBesides, USSR's companies - such as collective farms - had their own currencies
No.1831937
>>1831912that's not money. what makes money money is that you can spend it on anything in the market, not just that you can trade it for something to someone.
No.1831970
>>1831705ECP doesn't exist its the equivalent of saying y=mx+b is wrong because for real lines you have to measure b and cant "predict" where it is from slope alone
the point of LTV is to demonstrate the tendency of the rate of profit to fall so in the same way actual measurements for b dont change the slope of the line actual prices have no bearing on the validity of LTV
No.1831980
>>1831970>the point of LTV is to demonstrate the tendency of the rate of profit to fall pls explain how this follows
I thought the point of LTV was to demonstrate how capitalism is inherently exploitative
No.1831981
>>1831980the point of ltv is to demonstrate where value is coming from.
it's kind of in the name.
No.1831984
>>1831981Yes, I get that. But how does that prove the tendency for the rop to fall?
No.1831985
>>1831984As more of capital formation is "fixed" capital, i.e. machines instead of human labor, the less proportion of capital can be exploited, be underpaid, so to say, thus the rate of profit falls with time (absent attempts to minimize or optimize labor compensation)
No.1832100
>>1831705This is a non-issue with current computational technology but it used to be a serious argument in favor of market economy.
No.1832106
>>1831705You sidestep the problem by talking about labor time calculation and socializing production. The idea that socialism means reducing human productive relations to a giant math problem to be solved be the state is a reductive autistic idea that should have been left in the 20th century.
No.1832134
>>1832100It wasn't a serious argument ever. Nobody participating in economy in practice or in bureaucracy ever considered Mises' argument as anything but laughable. Only intellectuals, who aren't smart people as a rule, talked about it seriously, without understanding how stupid they looked doing so
No.1832470
>>1831877>socialism is when the government does stuff and also this is bad for some reasonlook at the etymology of the word government and tell me: what would be the result of no government? surely the problem isn't that there's government, but that there's
bad government
No.1832657
>>1831937you can't spend money on
anything in the market, you can only spend it on
anything in the dominion of the entity that prints it. in a company town, that means you spend company scrip. in a country, that means you spend the money of the government. In a company town, the company is the governing entity, and they print their own scrip. when a company prints its own money, it prints it within its own governing dominion.
No.1832661
>>1831885Exactly this. Capitalists' opposition to socialism is for no other reason than pure self-interest, regardless of how they intellectualize it. And why shouldn't they seek to uphold a system that benefits them? It's the same reason why proletarians become socialists — because it is in *their* material interests.
No.1832879
>>1831872Prior to contemporary cybersocialism, what were other attempts to respond to the calculation problem critique? I'm already aware of Kantorovich, and have heard Dobb and Neurath brought up in passing.
No.1833398
>>1832134Who outright said this?
No.1833754
>>1832879lange-lerner model also comes to mind though cockshott actually addresses this and previous models in his works. just read some of this pdfs
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