No.1821151
>>1821087>Lenin criticises trade union consciousness because its "uncritical", but the vanguardists are just intellectuals fighting for their own invisible handThe work is
What Is to Be Done?Lenin makes it Solidarność style, trade unions are thought to be strike comitees and provide own elections, forming parliament of its own
No.1821159
>>1820433your brain on bourgeois nationalism:
No.1821168
>>1821087>Give knives and guns to all men and lead a march to the homes of the powerful. Open the prisons like in the storming of bastille. Kill the lords and start anew, if anything must be done. And if anything more, mote it be.This is the inly part of fascism that I ever liked. The no bullshit expression of anger and hatred. In leftism everything is about having a theory an analysis and following "conditions" lile a machine. Don't get me wrong ill always be a leftist but the mainstream left just doesn't have this collectivist yet individualist zeitgeist. The O9A would have been gigabased if they werent pedophiles and rapists and focused their eneegy on the objects of power.
No.1821170
>>1821146Okay and i cant be an artisan sandwhich maker at home then? I'm forced to be proletarianised?
My point is that the economy is largely contrived out of other factors besides dependence on gaining access to "means of production"; lettuce and ranch sauce in this case.
>>1821154Reported for doxxing me
No.1821172
>>1821168the left already had its decade of schizo-fueled violence during the 70s and it was a complete motherfucking disaster
>>1821170>I-I-I'm forced to be proletarianised?YES
No.1821180
>>1821170>Okay and i cant be an artisan sandwhich maker at home then?Are you making sandwhiches to earn a profit?
>My point is that the economy is largely contrived out of other factors besides dependence on gaining access to "means of production"; lettuce and ranch sauce in this case.Idgaf, I am trying to pin down the definition of proletariat to an obtuse retard.
No.1821181
>>1821168>The O9A would have been gigabased if they werent pedophiles and rapists and focused their eneegy on the objects of power.When you play with fire you get burned.
I call it the curse of the black sun.
>>1821172>YESNope 😏
No.1821184
>>1821180Im making sandwhiches to consoom, which is the social relation of subway. One guy makes food and another eats it.
>Idgaf, I am trying to pin down the definition of proletariat to an obtuse retard.Yeah and i already blew it apart
Thats why "working class" or "the poor" or "the people" captures the socialist spirit more authentically, and this has coincidentally been where rightists have been successful populists, and where leftists likr you scramble for a scientific socialist definition.
No.1821186
>>1821184>Im making sandwhiches to consoom, which is the social relation of subway. One guy makes food and another eats it.So it is apples to oranges then.
>Yeah and i already blew it apartAsking stupid and nonsensical questions is not blowing it apart.
>scramble for a scientific socialist definition.So what? Leftist social and welfare policies (that rightists often steal) do work precisely because it comes from a scientific socialist framework.
No.1821197
>>1821186>So it is apples to oranges then.Dialectically, the "being" of a thing is in its qualitative distinction from common quantitative conditions. Apples and oranges are both fruit, but in themselves, they are totally different.
I see subway and see an irrelevant and useless mode of production, while you see the economy in your materialist perspective as something inherently rational, where everything is about profit and efficiency (this is another link between liberals and communists).
>Leftist social and welfare policies (that rightists often steal) do work precisely because it comes from a scientific socialist framework.Sure, we steal from you, but you cant steal our nationalistic sentiments, which is why you can capture the "proletariat", but youll never capture the "people". Again, quantitative vs qualitative concepts.
No.1821203
>>1820471>Show me one example of multinational states working out. Literally EVERY SINGLE POWERFUL EMPIRE IN HISTORY has been multinational you complete dumbfuck. To argue otherwise is to out yourself as an illiterate.
Even the right wing retards who worship the Roman Empire and Greek statues understand this.
No.1821206
>>1820693>Soviet ethnic policyYou mean allowing for secession and separatist and national movements and outright encouraging splits by forcing new languages onto people (example: Ukrainian) thereby fatally undermining unity from the very beginning?
Sounds utterly retarded. Defend your position using logic and historical examples. Oh wait you can't.
No.1821208
>>1821181honestly we dont care about your shitty little store. macroeconomy isnt run by shitty little stores either
>>1821184*I* *I* *I*
enough with this petite bourgeois self-centered spiel. go join the libertarian party or something
>Yeah and i already blew it apartthe econimal everyone
>Thats why "working class" or "the poor" or "the people" captures the socialist spirit more authenticallysuit yourself but it really doesnt. theyre nebulous and imprecise terms
>>1821197>(this is another link between liberals and communists)another banger from fascists. people who believe in magic want to lecture others on "the REAL world" now smh
>Sure, we steal from you, but you cant steal our nationalistic sentimentsgoing full schizo now
>which is why you can capture the "proletariat", but youll never capture the "people"who is the "people"?
No.1821215
>>1821197Spare me your fascist mambo-jumbo. I accept your admission that you have been asking pointless questions.
>Sure, we steal from you, but you cant steal our nationalistic sentimentsNor should we? Nation is a spook anyway. Capturing the 'people' is pointless because that is not what is needed to overthrow capitalism and implement socialism.
No.1821247
>>1821208>theyre nebulous and imprecise termsYeah thats the point. Its qualitative.
>who is the "people"?The people is the people. If you dont get it you dont get it.
>>1821215>Capturing the 'people' is pointless because that is not what is needed to overthrow capitalism and implement socialism.Sure
No.1821270
Modern day proletariat are retail workers as they are the majority of labourers and are harshly expoitated. But it is silly to say they would seize means of production meaning they will hold actual groceries.
After the Industrial Revolution (1750–1850), by the mid-19th century the great expansion of the bourgeoisie social class caused its stratification – by business activity and by economic function – into the haute bourgeoisie (bankers and industrialists) and the petite bourgeoisie (tradesmen and white-collar workers).[2] Moreover, by the end of the 19th century, the capitalists (the original bourgeoisie) had ascended to the upper class, while the developments of technology and technical occupations allowed the rise of working-class men and women to the lower strata of the bourgeoisie; yet the social progress was incidental.
So it's bankers and industrialists who run the society and revolution target, but it's inevitable that the poor will try to seize the riches' (middle class) property and wealth either.
No.1821288
>>1821168the only reason fascists were able to ever get away with that shit is because those angry mobs were deputized by the bourgeois and their police lackeys. the idea of some populist fascist uprising is a fucking myth, its a part of the legitimizing ideology of fascist movements sure, but without having elements of a divided ruling class on your side that kind of mob violence is swiftly crushed by cops. childish fantasy from people who want to pretend they dont kowtow to power whenever it matters, even though their entire ideology is about finding permission to indulge infantile sadism
i fucking hate fascoids
No.1821291
>>1820693I hope this is bait.
No.1821484
>>1821270>But it is silly to say they would seize means of production meaning they will hold actual groceries.Why not?
No.1821501
>>1821270>But it is silly to say they would seize means of production meaning they will hold actual groceries.how about seize the supermarkets and warehouses and entire food distribution network? hurr durr.
No.1821568
>>1821112Bro, you can misuse the terms for propagandistic effect when trying to manipulate normies, but please keep the term retardation to a minimum here. Why would you even try to deliberately misinform people here?
No.1838154
>>1838153It's super disappointing to see groups that have had an intransigent position against nationalism for many years now suddenly slip into defencism tbh.
No.1838160
>>1838154Russophobia and liberalism is one hell of a drug.
No.1838194
>>1820295The reality of the situation forced Lenin to retreat from a lot of his written convictions (e.g. all power to the soviets), so it's silly to take for granted that were Rosa in his place she would definitely adhere to the things she wrote.
No.1838592
>>1838194we know that Rosa herself no longer agreed with everything she'd written in that book by the end of her life. what we don't know for sure is which parts she did or didn't plan to rewrite. all we have is a manuscript capturing a snapshot of her views at one point
No.1839436
The famed Iron Felix Dzerzhinsky greatly admired Rosa Luxemburg.
No.1839439
there is nothing wrong with nationalism.
socialism can only be national(nazism)
No.1839442
>>1821270>Modern day proletariat are retail workers as they are the majority of labourers and are harshly expoitated.Please look outside the deindustrialized first world
No.1839446
>>1820033 my favourite Rosa trivia is that she thought the German Revolution was premature and spoke out against the notion, which we know from history to have been correct, but she's held up as a martyr as though the revolution was her idea and would've worked if it hadn't'a'been for the mean old SPD. communists can skip the awkward reflection on their foolhardy adventurism - no no, that was quite proper - our real mistake was that we didn't hate the socdems enough. well, we shan't make THAT mistake again.
No.1839449
>>1839439everybody says that until it's their turn to die meaninglessly for a forever war
No.1839464
Workers movement lacks civilian protest (due to the belief it is a bernsteinian thing) and civilian protest (an actual one), usually organised by an interest group, is basically seen by this group as a "performance", not a poilitical action. Theoretically, imagine that nothing has changed since 1917, consider opposition coordination into a council body, elect your representatives, make the name sound worker connected - you have just invented soviets in russia
No.1840264
>>1821168>would have been gigabased if they werent pedophiles and rapiststhat's a pretty huge "if" don'tcha think, namefag?
No.1843086
genocide is not a unique appearance of capitalist society but a product of imperialist war in an of itself,
to oppose genocide on all terms is not to push nationalist ideology (from which genocide is birthed) but instead to demand an end to the capitalist system>>1839439as luxemburg said, wars are never only national in the modern day, they are always bourgeois-imperialistic. hamas and the PLO represent a palestinian bourgeoisie and israel represents the israeli bourgeoisie. both sides demand blood for nationalist construction and are helped and funded by competing bourgeois interests too
no national group has a right to any land, that is nationalistic thinking. all people ought to hold land in common, there is no birthright to anywhere
No.1843089
>>1839439Capitalism is global, socialism must also follow.
No.1843100
>>1843089uyghas really believe a fractured proletariat has any chance against the bourgeoisie
No.1843516
>>1843086>genocide is not a unique appearance of capitalist society but a product of imperialist war in an of itselfgenocide has existed since humanity was multiple species
>giflet her cook
No.1844715
>>1821168>The O9A would have been gigabased if they werent pedophiles and rapists and focused their eneegy on the objects of power.And nuclear bombs would be based if they weren't deadly weapons.
It's not some mere coincidence they are the way they are. It's their own explicit doctrine of being antisocial and transgressive. And this expands beyond O9A and even esoteric hitlerist movements. The neo-Nazi movement openly glorifies sadistic destruction and horror, so it's going to continue attracting those people.
>In leftism everything is about having a theory an analysis and following "conditions" lile a machine. At the end of the day, our main goal is to succeed. If we could win by just shooting kings and yelling in the streets, it would have already worked.
No.1844729
>>1843089you best start believin' in world systems miss turner
No.1844825
>>1844719to think these are the same people who denounce that gays are conspiring to groom children
No.1844827
>>1844825>They're COMING for your VULNERABLE CHILDRENThis is the kind of language that pulls on the heart strings of people and makes them forget about all rational thought, it doesn't really matter what children experience or whatever.
No.1844840
>>1820033The individual, state and event you talk about are all long dead.
Why do you care?
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