No.529472
who dat?
No.529482
Political theory
Hobbes, influenced by contemporary scientific ideas, had intended for his political theory to be a quasi-geometrical system, in which the conclusions followed inevitably from the premises.[9] The main practical conclusion of Hobbes's political theory is that state or society cannot be secure unless at the disposal of an absolute sovereign. From this follows the view that no individual can hold rights of property against the sovereign, and that the sovereign may therefore take the goods of its subjects without their consent. This particular view owes its significance to it being first developed in the 1630s when Charles I had sought to raise revenues without the consent of Parliament, and therefore of his subjects.[9] Hobbes rejected one of the most famous theses of Aristotle's politics, namely that human beings are naturally suited to life in a polis and do not fully realize their natures until they exercise the role of citizen.[32] It is perhaps also important to note that Hobbes extrapolated his mechanistic understanding of nature into the social and political realm, making him a progenitor of the term 'social structure.'
Leviathan
Main article: Leviathan (Hobbes book)
Frontispiece of Leviathan
In Leviathan, Hobbes set out his doctrine of the foundation of states and legitimate governments and creating an objective science of morality.[33] Much of the book is occupied with demonstrating the necessity of a strong central authority to avoid the evil of fbi.gov and civil war.
Beginning from a mechanistic understanding of human beings and their passions, Hobbes postulates what life would be like without government, a condition which he calls the state of nature. In that state, each person would have a right, or license, to everything in the world. This, Hobbes argues, would lead to a "war of all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes). The description contains what has been called one of the best-known passages in English philosophy, which describes the natural state humankind would be in, were it not for political community:[34]
In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.[35]
In such states, people fear death and lack both the things necessary to commodious living, and the hope of being able to obtain them. So, in order to avoid it, people accede to a social contract and establish a civil society. According to Hobbes, society is a population and a sovereign authority, to whom all individuals in that society cede some right[36] for the sake of protection. Power exercised by this authority cannot be resisted, because the protector's sovereign power derives from individuals' surrendering their own sovereign power for protection. The individuals are thereby the authors of all decisions made by the sovereign,[37] "he that complaineth of injury from his sovereign complaineth that whereof he himself is the author, and therefore ought not to accuse any man but himself, no nor himself of injury because to do injury to one's self is impossible". There is no doctrine of separation of powers in Hobbes's discussion. He argues that any division of authority would lead to internal strife, jeopardizing the stability provided by an absolute sovereign.[38][39] According to Hobbes, the sovereign must control civil, military, judicial and ecclesiastical powers, even the words.[40]
No.529484
he looks like someone whose twin was fear, alright
No.529496
>>529469>The main practical conclusion of Hobbes's political theory is that state or society cannot be secure unless at the disposal of an absolute sovereign. From this follows the view that no individual can hold rights of property against the sovereign, and that the sovereign may therefore take the goods of its subjects without their consent.how was he right tho? modern society is not ruled by sum dude, but multiple dudes. the absolute sovereign is a figuerehead now. and im pretty sure its always been. no one king was w/out his advisors.
>In such condition, there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.[35]and another question about these things. half of this stuff came about bc of ecconomics, not politics, ppl got paid to navigate, to make arts, trade, etc. in an apocalypse we'd prob still hve this shit, so im confused. any smarter anons wanna educate me?
No.529504
>>529482what a load of horseshit.
anglos should be all shot on site for being physically incapable of thinking dialectically.
No.529505
>>529496>modern society is not ruled by sum dude, but multiple dudes. the absolute sovereign is a figuerehead now. and im pretty sure its always been. no one king was w/out his advisors. Speak up more brother. You reveal an overlooked fact. People think monarchies are a one man show in termsof exectuive power.
People forget that councils are what really make a regime run. Kings couldnt be everywere st once so he had to have a subdivision of trusted offocials to tell him what wqs what.
Councils are responsible if not instrumental in alot of regal affairs. Whenver theres a poer struggle or an inter ethnic spat, councillors often use their wits to seduce the king to do their bidding.
No.529507
>>529482Diet Legalism tbh
No.529516
>>529505thank u anon. i agree w/ ur take this should be expressed more.
No.529528
>>529496hobbes is just another half assed justification for class rule and "ackshually society cant improve cuz muh Huemon nature". In some ways the state of nature shit reminds me of lot of more modern capitalist apologetics that boils down too " well if left to my own devices I would become a marauding bandit so clearly everyone else will do exactly that if given the chance". Shit like this is why anthropology should be mandatory so people understand there are more ways to configure a human society than "european state good everything else is literally mad max"
No.529617
Look at Oman, KSA, Bhutan and any Asian absolute monarchies, lowest crime rates in the world
Look at Brazil, a rump third world shithole memecracy, bigger murder rates than active warzones
No.529622
>>529617>Look at Oman, KSA, Bhutan and any Asian absolute monarchies, What a meme lol
No.529625
>>529622Safest nations in the world
Evil is humanity's natural state. Only through the iron fist of thr state it is contained
No.529641
>>529625The iron fist of the state doesnt quell evil. It only refines it and reserces fun for the elites.
You can build sculptures out of feces but it still stinks
No.529647
>>529496That's not the monarchy Hobbes is famous for.
Hobbes is famous for corporatism.
Or making the State into a Monarch "One Person".
No.529651
>>529625>Safest nations in the worldOfficially.
No.529661
>live in england
>think permanent war and violence is an inherent part of the human condition
No.529676
>>529617You can achieve the same with ba'athism, or any kind of totalitarian socialism really.
No.529677
>>529661Europe during the 1600s in general was very Hellish and ravaged by war. England got off lightly all things considered.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War No.529678
Test
No.529684
Him bakunin have same idea about the nature of the state and yet there conclusions are complete opposites.
No.529831
>>529528He's literally advocating for a dictatorship of the proletariat
No.529840
>>529469This thread is what happens when you read too much Gracefag.
No.529843
Patently false and a very low autism score reading of Hobbes. The chief reactionary defense of Hobbesianism, as per Schmitt etc, isn't necessarily about crime (which in many cases have more to do with wealth renumeration and urban planning than State Power) but about the qualitative power of the State as this ultimate, transcendental God-on-Earth that mediates religious, sectarian, ethnic and ultimately class tensions in a given society and culling of any "demagogue" that seeks to control the Masses by inciting conflict and chaos. The State is Law and Order, not merely in the sense of clamping down on crime but also on the very concept of Conflict.
Of course, we know now that Hobbes and Schmitt are wrong. Schmitt's own Nazi Reich turned to be among the most sectarian, criminal and demagogue-ish state that demanded absolute control of the Masses. Instead of resolving the conflict between Jews and German under its paternal gaze, the absolute Monarchy of Germany incited Germans to go on a continent-wide rampage to kill every Jew they can find in a manner not unlike that of ISIS or the Crusaders.
And this is where Marx shines through. Marx, and even other reactionaries like Nietzsche, correctly perceived that States cannot transcend conflict because the state is conflict by any other means. The "Law and Order' of the Hobbesian Leviathan is actually a sustained Disorder and Chaos resulting from the ruling class imposing its will on the world. The property owner on the proles, the warrior caste on the serfs, the slaver on the slaves, and so on and so forth. And the more the State tried to normalize its views as the natural, ordered state of the world, the more chaotic and sectarian it becomes; just like how the Tower of Babel which seeked to unite man to topple God dialectically ended with the fall of the tower and the destruction of the unified, primordial human language
No.529844
>>529843but where has real Hobbesianism ever been tried
No.529845
>>529840IIRC Gracefag doesn't like Hobbes that much but I might be mistaking them for other monarchists who don't like how popular sovereignty is a component of his social contact theory.
No.529869
>>529469Anarchism is the red pill about state power. Using violence on common people is a materialist relation.
No.529872
>>529469Communism needs a King, if it is ever to be established.
'Democracy' stands in complete opposition to the abolition of private property. How does one decide on production and distribution of goods and services, if the means of production belong to everyone? The result would be a war of all against all, even in the absence of traditional class divides.
The best way to resolve this would be to place all property and civil authority in the hands of a single unitary Sovereign. A Sovereign who would arbitrate social production from a position of neutral impartiality. A communist monarchy would be superior to the traditional idea of a bureaucratic party-state, as the latter has a tendency to stratify itself away from the people and form a new class society, or even bring back capitalism. Whereas how could a monarchy of one person constitute a class?
No.529896
>>529837Bakunin has become a monster. A huge mass of flesh and fat.
No.529946
>>529872>The best way to resolve this would be to place all property and civil authority in the hands of a single unitary Sovereign.When Leviathan divided and distributed property, socialism rolls it all back into a bundle again in reverse.
No.529976
>>529872Monbol
Monbol
Monbol
No.530070
>>529844Every single nation-state
No.530134
>>530070i don't remember a country where everyone combined together to form a giant dude
No.530186
>>529872Just make an advanced econophysics AI decide on production and distribution based on communist parameters. There's your "sovereign"
No.530203
who dat?
No.530260
>>529625safest for who? retard KYS nazoid
No.530286
>>530186That would be ideal, but a human sovereign would be needed in the interim to ensure that the AI is impartially programmed/trained.
No.530299
>>529484Carl Schmidt had an interesting take on hobbes' sovereignty and how the russian revolution shows that in the modern era the sovereign doesnt have to be a single monarch but can also be political party.
No.530318
>>530286No, you have workers' councils manage the AI's priorities by giving user feedback
No.530342
>>529872The problem with systems built around strong, centralized leadership, like monarchy, is that you have one central failure-point. You can have the most prosperous nation in the world, but if you roll a bad king, the whole thing collapses overnight.
Bureaucracy is obviously less efficient, but it's a lot more stable, and better at dealing with existential threats. It's why the US was able to take down the Soviet Union, despite the Soviet Union, at its best, being the superior nation.
No.530345
>>530299>Carl Schmidt had an interesting take on hobbes' sovereignty and how the russian revolution shows that in the modern era the sovereign doesnt have to be a single monarch but can also be political party.Don't forget, but Hobbes' work is not only about absolute monarchy (common misconception) but also pertinent to all forms of State.
Not only Monarchy, but Democracy & Oligarchy also apply.
No.530347
>>530342So is Xi making a mistake by transitioning to a more centralized leadership model for the CPC? Or is it necessary?
No.530355
>>530347I'd say that overall, he is.
Centralization is not without it's benefits; China's been doing great, and I doubt it would be doing as well as it is if it weren't for Xi's strong leadership. But that's because Xi is a strong leader. If his successor proves to be inferior, the ground gained under his regime will very quickly be lost.
No.530425
>>529617>Look at Oman, KSA, Bhutan and any Asian absolute monarchies, lowest crime rates in the worldGo live there then, uygha
No.530436
who dat?
No.532786
It is interesting that Cromwell allowed him to come back after exile in France.
No.532795
>>530286>>530318And therefore, with technology paving the way, communism may be able to manifest within humanity.
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