No.523328
tbf the bene gesserit wanted to make a new religion all along
No.523347
>>523327>on accidentthat was the whole point actually, having an handy religion available when needed
in the books at least
No.523530
>>523327>Christ myth bullshitCould you stop this? It's "the pyramids were power plants" tier nonsense.
No.523554
>>523530christ as a person was real but the mythology surrounding him was most certainly not, the "christ was made by romans" myth is stupid and easily disprovable, but his mythology was utilized by romans to serve their cause
No.523567
>>523554There was no historical christ
The whole thing is a myth based on the age of pisces, the mithraic cult and the jewish rebellions.
No.523575
>>523567there was a jesus that lived in nazerath, however paul created a mythology of what jesus was
No.523577
>>523575So you think the writers of the gospels created a story from paul's words?
The first gospels appear immediately after the fall of the second temple to explain to the jews that they had betrayed their messiah. And its not just heresay, its carefully constructed mythology.
No.523621
>>523577Paul would have written his epistles 36-70 CE. The first Gospel (Mark) was written by a Greek-speaking educated Jewish person some time around the fall of the 2nd temple. The fact that the gospel writers were educated and Greek speaking/writing and certainly not the illiterate fishermen that made up Jesus's apostles, is a sign that they probably came from a wealthy background and were either recording the narratives of an early Christian community that were passed down orally, or were deliberately constructing a narrative of their own design.
No.523634
>>523621Well, this "oral" christianity is just a conglomeration of existing traditions like i say. You can find traces of dionysus in jesus, or mithra, or anything contemporary. In paul's epistles you can even find gnostic elements.
My point would be that this designates christianity as the symbol of the zeitgeist itself, and its manifestation is the Spirit of the age. So its "invention" is also its own self-discovery (where i think the prophetic dream of constantine signifies this usurpation).
No.523639
>>523634>My point would be that this designates christianity as the symbol of the zeitgeist itself, and its manifestation is the Spirit of the age.The thing about religions
in general is that you can always find traces of them in each other, and they always fit into the superstructure or "zeitgeist", because religions are internally diverse, change over time, and are embedded in all dimensions of culture, and are not clearly defined in their "borders." For example, Confucianism. Some call it a religion. Some call it a civic religion. Some call it an elite philosophy. Religious studies scholars don't even have a consensus on what constitutes a religion, instead going for a sort of "you know it when you see it" approach. Christianity has changed a lot since the early days, not to mention all the schisms and denominations. I think it's fair to say even if it was intended as an apocalyptic ideology tailored to 1st century Judean politics, it has long since outgrown its swaddling clothes.
No.523644
>>523639Yes, well christianity has grown from its zeitgeist ("spirit of the time") into its weltgeist ("world-spirit"). Its progressive development is just part of its self-movement, where the book of revelation (which begins as a literal warning against rome, "the beast" with 7 heads [hills], and nero kaisar 666 being the anti-christ) has become something self-fulfilling in the structure of world-history.
And so my point would be that the (teleological) "grounding" of a thing is precisely its groundlessness (as a social relation). We cant just look back to find out what the bible is really talking about - in some way, it is even more relevant today. Christ is a myth, but is in this precise way, more "true" than in the mere facticity of an "historical jesus".
No.523650
>>523575Lots of people created a mythology of who Jesus was. Paul's version is just the one the Romans adopted while suppressing the others.
No.523653
>>523650what if Paul's was just like, the best
No.523663
>>523554Even this is kind of dubious. If the Romans were the ones behind the mythology of Christ, why did they suppress Christianity?
Why was their adoption of Christianity such a disorganized fluke rather than something more orderly and obviously planned?
No.523664
>>523650>Paul's version is just the one the Romans adopted while suppressing the others.The Romans didn't really give a shit about Christianity and treated it as a minor annoyance save for a couple of flareups of persecutions under certain emperors. For the most part the persecutions by the Romans weren't even that effective outside of the city of Rome. The Pagan Roman government ultimately had very little influence over the doctrines of Christianity. Even if the Romans created Christianity, they could control how it evolved as a fluid tradition within a growing multinational community. Especially in West Asia and North Africa, which were in the farther reaches of the empire. The early Christians actually suppressed each other through infighting. Gnostic heresies were wiped out by what would become the Catholic church. Church organizations established Christian orthodoxy, not the pagan Roman government.
No.523665
>>523663>If the Romans were the ones behind the mythology of Christ, why did they suppress Christianity? 1. Joseph Atwill's book alleges that it was the Flavians who created Christianity, while the Julio Claudians suppressed it.
2. Roman persecution of Christianity was multifaceted and a bit overblown
No.523666
>>523664>>523665Why didn't they adopt Manichaeanism instead though it was just as popular
No.523668
>>523665And why exactly didn't the Flavians think it was necessary to tell anyone that they had invented a religion?
Christian persecution under the Romans being exaggerated doesn't mean it didn't happen.
No.523670
>>523666Manichaeism was popular along what would become the silk road.
No.523671
>>523668>Christian persecution under the Romans being exaggerated doesn't mean it didn't happen.Good thing I didn't say it didn't happen. Why are you arguing with a point I wasn't trying to make?
>And why exactly didn't the Flavians think it was necessary to tell anyone that they had invented a religion? Read Atwill's book. This isn't my perspective. Atwill's book Caesar's Messiah alleges that the Flavians invented Christianity as a sort of cucked version of Judaism for newly captured slaves after the destruction of Jerusalem.
No.523712
>>523327Interesting idea but christians being persecuted for centuries works against any conspiracy theories.
No.523739
>>523671>Good thing I didn't say it didn't happen. Why are you arguing with a point I wasn't trying to make?Because it was in answer to an inconsistency in this claim. Why would the Roman Empire declare Christianity
superstitsio and have it adherents persecuted if they created it and
wanted people to follow it? Even if the persecution "wasn't that bad" on the larger scale of things, that it was persecuted at all, and that this persecution included very painful public executions would send the message to
not follow that religion.
>the Flavians invented Christianity as a sort of cucked version of Judaism for newly captured slaves after the destruction of Jerusalem.And why would they never mention to anyone that they had done this? Why would they keep Rome itself out of the loop? When the religion failed to gain traction among the Jews and instead became popular among the Greeks, why wouldn't they come out then and say it was a failed psyop? And why would they only do this once, which would have been a radical deviation from their usual policy (which was basically that the gods of the local religion and the gods of the Roman state religion were basically the same) and then never again? And why would they never mention any of this to anyone and maintain such perfect secrecy?
No.523780
>>523739>Why would the Roman Empire declare Christianity superstitsio and have it adherents persecuted if they created it and wanted people to follow itBecause the people declaring it superstitio and the people creating it were different people in different places with different motivations. It's like asking why the CIA backed the Islamists in Afghanistan only to fight them later on.
No.523862
>>523780Anon the same was done to Manichaeanism and in that case Diocletian actually successfully annihilated it in the Roman Empire
No.528881
>>523780Are you talking about the Flavians as in the imperial dynasty? As in Vespasian, Titus and Domitian? Because they were the imperial dynasty after Nero, and Christianity was already a thing under Nero.
No.528900
>>528881Atwill's hypothesis is that Christianity was created around 70 CE during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Flavians, and that the story of Christ's crucifixion was backdated to 40 years to create a fore-runner Messiah figure who predicted Jerusalem's destruction at the hands of a "Son of Man" within one generation. This grounds Christ's apocalyptic prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in the politics of that generation. Atwill's hypothesis is that Josephus fabricated the New Testament alongside War of The Jews so that the Christian myth would have both a religious primary source (The New Testament) and a secular historical source (Josephus). Atwill claims that The War of the Jews by Josephus and the New Testament both contain intertextual hints that they were written by the same author that would only make sense if you read both works back to back, and that early church fathers mistook Josephus's historical work as a confirmation of Christ's prophecies rather than as a sign that both works come from the same clique of imperial flunkies under Vespasian and later Titus.
No.528906
>>528881>>528900Realistically something like this should have been planned by the governer of Syria, the local Judaean prefect or one of a series of progressively lower ranking Roman public officials. Judea was a province of only marginal strategic importance, so it would make more sense for local officials to foster a jewish apocalyptic cult on their own, independent of imperial oversight.
Personally i doubt the creation was ever meant to spread beyond Asia. Still the apostolic movement and the proximity of Judea to larger centers of trade raised it to viral status. This spread also coincided with a period in Rome, where exotic Eastern apocalyptic cults like the Cult of Mithras were majorly en vogue with many citizens.
No.528934
>>528906>Realistically something like this should have been planned by the governer of Syria, the local Judaean prefect or one of a series of progressively lower ranking Roman public officials. Judea was a province of only marginal strategic importance, so it would make more sense for local officials to foster a jewish apocalyptic cult on their own, independent of imperial oversight.Only of marginal strategic importance even though it had just as much access to the sea as Syria had, and was connected directly to North Africa by the isthmus of suez, which was the only available land crossing between asia minor and north africa? And if judea was only of minor strategic importance, why the long and hard fought guerrilla war against the judeans, culminating in first, the destruction of jerusalem, and later the siege of masada, and the capture/death/enslavement of jews. And what's strangest of all, is that one of the earliest known "Christian" cemeteries were Judean slaves of the Flavians. Now did the Flavians really capture "Christians" or was "Christianity" the new form of invented slave morality forced onto defeated Jews after the destruction of Jerusalem? One that warped the tradition of a military messiah into the "peaceful martyr" messiah who told his people to "render unto caesar" and "obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling" and to expect no reward until you die? A mighty convenient moral code to force onto slaves, no? And what of Judas's last name Iscariot? One of the most infamous band of Jewish Nationalist/Monarchist rebels fighting the roman empire at the time was led by a man named Judas, and that band of rebels were called the Sicarii?
No.529071
>>523644Can you rephrase this? i can't understand what you are saying.
No.529150
>>529066Jews that got retconned
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