No.1840186
>>1840175>Nuclear>can only support up to a quarter of a billion Are you fucking retarded? I know the userbase has degraded a bit but to be this ignorant about nuclear power is something else. Nuclear Power is only growing more powerful and efficient, and could easily support people for a long time.
>on top of that we've fucked the climate If people reduce emissions, take action now etc. the Climate will return to normal, you have no idea how resilient that shit is. The holes in the Ozone layer that were reported decades ago are closing up because of reduced use of stuff like aerosols and freon and so on.
>and no one gives a fuck.You're an idiot. People give a fuck, but what are they supposed to do? Instead of stating self-evident facts HERE, why don't you provide the 'brilliant' plan to fix this that nobody else seems to have thought of! You can't because it's not that simple, it never has been.
>muh Malthusian That's not even what Malthusianism is you dumb-fuck.
No.1840188
Bro, but we NEED to let Bezos buy his hundredth 500 bathroom mansion, bro.
No.1840192
>>1840175> and could easily support people for a long time. yes, but not eight billion+ not for a long time. we'll run out of radioactives like uranium faster than oil at this rate.
>If people reduce emissions, take action now etc. the Climate will return to normalmaybe but it doesn't matter, we're fucked. but we can lessen the damage if we dismantle capitalism.
>but what are they supposed to do?whatever they're doing isn't working.
>That's not even what Malthusianism is you dumb-fuck.???? usually some retards get triggered by the slightest mention of anything to do with population and starts screaming mathusian!!!
No.1840198
>>1840192> we'll run out of radioactives like uranium faster than oil at this rate. Fucking hell that's not how nuclear reactors work or nuclear fuel.
>it doesn't matter, we're fucked. Ok Doomer
>we can lessen the damage if we dismantle capitalism. That's your brilliant plan? Wow, why didn't anyone else think of this!? No shit sherlock, and how are we going to do that exactly? People don't just rise up because someone screams "Revolution Time!"
>usually some retards get triggered by the slightest mention of anything to do with population and starts screaming mathusian Reducing the population by directly terminating people for the sake of resources, is Malthusian. Are you proposing that?
>whatever they're doing isn't working So what's the plan then chief?
No.1840200
>>1840186>If people reduce emissions, take action now etc. the Climate will return to normal, you have no idea how resilient that shit is. The holes in the Ozone layer that were reported decades ago are closing up because of reduced use of stuff like aerosols and freon and so on. Uhh, no, this is total fucking misinformation dog. Do you even fucking realize how much energy is in earth systems? just look at the EEI for fucks sake. If we cut emissions right now, not only would it not help, it would actively catapult us into further tipping points and we would actually end up with more heating even faster. There is no putting the breaks on this, we're in a predicament, and a predicament has no real solution.
It's so frustrating, everybody just downplays the climate crisis because they don't actually understand the science or understand how it will affect food production. You have no idea how fucked life on this planet is for the next several millennia. You'll live to understand though.
No.1840202
>>1840186>>1840200> The holes in the Ozone layer that were reported decades ago are closing up because of reduced use of stuff like aerosols and freon and so on. didn't a giant fucking hole in the ozone literally open over antarctica last year as well
https://atmosphere.copernicus.eu/large-and-persistent-2023-ozone-hole-closes#:~:text=The%202023%20ozone%20hole%20completed,longest-lived%20observed%20to%20date.
Don't run your ignorant fucking retarded mouth on matters on the survival of life on this planet YOU STUPID IGNORANT FUCK.
No.1840203
>>1840198Man look, the point is, this situation we're in isn't sustainable. obviously I don't have a plan, im screaming at the void at this point.
>Reducing the population by directly terminating…no I was trying to point out how a lot of people will naturally die anyways as a consequence of the unsustainability we're in. that we should counter this whatever way we can. we should divide resources but a lot of people are gonna get fucked regardless because it's near impossible to plan accordingly against the coming chaos.
so far liberals have convinced people that capitalism can handle the climate disaster, we need solid evidence that can show that in times of crisis a planned economy is the only thing that can reduce damage effectively, something to show (keyword show) people how ridiculous the idea that free markets can be tamed to fix anything in the long run.
No.1840206
We could turn virtually 90% of uranium 238 into plutonium 239 and then use that as fuel.
This would mean that we no longer have to centrifuge raw ore but instead just slap that shit straight into a breeder reactor.
Or there's heavy water plants which can run on unenriched uranium, or even depleted.
The issue here isn't the amount of raw fuel available (there's enough U238 for breeder reactors to last centuries) but rather supposedly the safety issue and possibly the cost of getting more heavy water.
I honestly don't think that the heavy water cost is as much a problem when all nuclear plants create significant amounts of heavy water discharge waste. Also it potentially gets us a trace bit more helium, which is a critical resource we're running out of.
No.1840210
>>1840200fucking retarded absolute fuck
sorry i got this angry towards a comrade, but what youre suggesting seems to be either a reactionary, utopic "return to simpler lifestyles" charade or a useless, defeatist whine. both could kill a lot of proletariats
the bourgeois also live in this planet and are not dumb. theyre individualist and short sighted, sure, and their limitation to national interests environmentally fuck everyone, but the countries who most cut carbon dioxide emissions by 2022 are european. this was thanks to their technological development, given by their powerful means of production. one thing doesnt imply the other, of course (china, usa and russia dramatically increased carbon dioxide emissions), but they are an indication of what a society can efficiently do and think. this is why countries like africa can rank very low on carbon emissions (their development cant neither guarantee their subsistance, thus it simply generates no significant chemical excretion), but the ones on southeast asia can (theyre fastly growing in industrial capacity while absolutely wrecking their own environments)
No.1840212
>>1840210also esl and im high
No.1840220
>>1840210>>1840210>sorry i got this angry towards a comrade, but what youre suggesting seems to be either a reactionary, utopic "return to simpler lifestyles" charade or a useless, defeatist whine. both could kill a lot of proletariatsThere is no returning to "simpler" times. I want to see both radical adaption and a civilization that puts environment and conservation front and center. Human beings will adapt, or they will FAFO.
Our biggest problem to overcome right now is termination shock. Because aerosols and pollutants from carbon emissions paradoxically also keep the planet cooler. We are in a predicament because while we can't afford to keep putting carbon into the atmosphere, we're also like a terminal alcoholic who will die if he stops cold turkey.
We need to dig in and get fucking prepared as a united humanity to survive and to overcome the 6th great mass extinction, the anthropogenic mass extinction.
Sadly we're still genociding eachother and doing more heinous acts than ever.
I don't want to be a defeatist, but when I look at what needs to be done, and where we are…It ain't lookin great m8. It's fucking grim. Like bro, are you rural? I've seen so much life disappear over the past 6 years or so. There's less of like…Everything, our ecosystems are just failing in real time. Even my retarded hick coworker remarked she didn't see many frogs anymore. When I was a kid, the orb weavers used to literally cover the motherfucking trees in giant colonies, some of them like the size of your fucking hand, and i think I saw exactly 1 last year……
No.1840225
>>1840200> If we cut emissions right now, not only would it not help, it would actively catapult us into further tipping points The fuck are you talking about? That's not how positive feedback loops work, yes shit will take time to recover, but it's not what you think.
>everybody just downplays the climate crisis because they don't actually understand the science or understand how it will affect food productionI understand a hell of a lot better than you - food production isn't the problem, the problem is local environmental damage, which can and will restore itself. This literally has happened several times over millenia both in prehistoric times and in ancient history.
>a predicament has no real solutioThen why are you bitching about it, if there's "nothing to be done"? I don't give a fuck what you say, I'm just going to work on reducing emissions and otherwise counter-acting the impacts as best I can, I don't need some doomer telling me shit I know about subjects I know.
>>1840202>on't run your ignorant fucking retarded mouth on matters on the survival of life on this planet No, YOU shut your stupid mouth. I was literally studying this as part of my degree.
https://hub.jhu.edu/2023/01/31/un-report-ozone-layer-recovery/.
No.1840227
We need a commie take over and we need it NOW. no time to fuck around. I'm not even a proper commie my self, but I don't see a way out with capitalism with this one.
No.1840228
>>1840206>rather supposedly the safety issue and possibly the cost of getting more heavy water.Modern technology negates many of the risks and makes it much more compact. Also Fusion reactors have immense energy outputs, so those are also things to consider.
>>1840203>the point is, this situation we're in isn't sustainable No shit, then all we can do is make the best of it and prepare.
> was trying to point out how a lot of people will naturally die anyways as a consequence of the unsustainability we're in. Duh, I'm agreeing with you.
>liberals have convinced people that capitalism can handle the climate disaster, we need solid evidence that can show that in times of crisis a planned economy is the only thing that can reduce damage effectively Correct. The proof is in the USSR and Stalin's Great Plan for Environmental Restoration. I wrote an article for it years back:
https://wiki.leftypol.org/wiki/The_Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature Also see pdf and pic rel.
No.1840229
>>1840220im aware of this. i study enviro sci, and i live in a recently urbanized (ex rural) area
but the thing is, the damage is done. well be probably in damage control for a long time and our ecosystems will surely deteriorate further
do you know which societies are willing (and able, of course) to allocate resources to try and find a solution for this? those with more developed, efficient means of production
No.1840235
>>1840225>The fuck are you talking about? That's not how positive feedback loops work, yes shit will take time to recover, but it's not what you think. The positive feedback loops are already here. We MUST stop emissions, but stopping emissions will also cause a huge SHORT TERM spike in heating because the heating will stop being offset.
>This literally has happened several times over millenia both in prehistoric times and in ancient history.Not ever even slightly as fast as this, earths systems are so fucking sensitive. not necessarily fragile, but SENSITIVE, the amount of energy we have dumped into the climate, and in turn the oceans, is absolutely unprecedented in earths history, and this is the fastest event>>1840225
extinction ever.
>Then why are you bitching about it, if there's "nothing to be done"? I don't give a fuck what you say, I'm just going to work on reducing emissions and otherwise counter-acting the impacts as best I can, I don't need some doomer telling me shit I know about subjects I know. There is a LOT to be fucking done motherfucker, that's the point, if we want to stand a chance at survival we need to achieve whatever the highest form of communism is as fast as possible tbh.
>>1840225
>No, YOU shut your stupid mouth. I was literally studying this as part of my degree.Fuck your degree dawg, you're drinking the climate moderate koolaid. you're being a climate liberal. That's what you have learned, climate liberalism. good job.
No.1840239
>>1840229>do you know which societies are willing (and able, of course) to allocate resources to try and find a solution for this? those with more developed, efficient means of productionYeah no shit, but the question is how do you maintain those means of production without fossil fuels or plastics? Like, realistically, how many of the rare earth minerals needed to produce computer parts and solar panels and electronics can be acquired in a socialist society without exploitation?
I just don't see how we're not in for a tremendous downturn. Like, aside from all the nightmarish climate shit, we have the biodiversity crisis, that biodiversity crisis is also leading to a disease crisis, so now we've got bird flu coming in off the back of covid. We have AMOC throwing signs of shutting down sooner rather than later, and ocean life is probably doomed if the oceans keep heating like they are.
No.1840241
I've been a bit out of the loop in the past few years, is the right still in the disaster denial stage? it's crazy how many people buy into their shit.
No.1840242
>>1840239>without exploitation?youre not an anarchist are you? you cant just magically abolish material conditions in a week
were gonna have to keep working g. a lot
and yeah yeah the world is gonna be a shithole in the near future. what can we do but brace for impact and find a way out? these ecological disasters you talk about are so profound theres just a little amount of damage we can revert about them since they compromise billions of years of evolution
No.1840251
>>1840242not an anarchist just a very depressed and hopeless ruraloid. I think the most important things we can do are expand public transportion and infrastructure, ban lawnmowers, ban monoculture lawns, set much, much, much more land aside for conservation, and start spreading food forests far and wide.
But I'm just a poor ruraloid, the entire system is built to keep me out, and socialists only really seem interested in organizing the cities, which I don't blame them really, they'd probably be shot or run over if they even tried in my town.
There's just something very psychologically oppressive and uncanny living in parts of rural america, you just kinda see the same faces every day, and every day you just see people, honestly friendly decent enough people just wasting away on meth or opiates or cigarettes and a 12 pack every night.
Arn't the zionists finishing off rafah as we speak?
What a horrible fucking world we've found ourselves in comrades. We long since passed the darkest reaction, we are in an abyss of depravity and mammon.
No.1840259
>>1840251>only really seem interested in organizing the cities, which I don't blame them really, they'd probably be shot or run over if they even tried in my town.the left worldwide is mostly of petite bourgeois origin and that trumps their ability to communicate with their countries' working class. they *should* organize rural proletariats too and listen to their problems, even if they face danger, because thats the type of problems that come from trying to organize
they happen now and they happened two centuries ago
>friendly decent enough people just wasting away on meth or opiates or cigarettes and a 12 pack every night.i mean people here live in deadly slums overflowing with crime and drugs, their 10 yo children are illiterate and a lot of them of them recycle garbage for a living
imagine what bolsheviks saw in an oppressive, miserable regime like tsarist russia. did that reality stop them?
No.1840262
Isn't China making strides in "green" energy (solar, wind and stuff)? If nothing else, the MSM wants you to know that China has a monopoly on this stuff.
No.1840282
>Protest nuclear for 30 years
>Get out of nuclear
>"Hey why are we burning coal now?"
No.1840287
>>1840262They are not making "strides" they are just producing a ton of renewable equipment, just like they produce a ton of whatever people will buy.
Fundamental progress in renewable would be to improve storage (batteries) but it's a very difficult thing to do, and although we've made progress in battery technology electricity is still not really a form of energy that lends itself to storage.
No.1840294
>>1840186Why will people take action? If you look at China, people there follow the same patterns as multiple cars per family, they commodities they consume look similar to as everywhere. India likely will have same patterns in the future.
To take an action, I think, there should be structures where people can organize, for example decide on public transportation. If I need a bus time to time, there is no place where I can talk about that. How can then I take action now?
No.1840308
>>1840175yeah this high population bubble is going to burst sooner or later when we run out of synthetic fertilisers
No.1840319
Only because we're going to bomb through the Chinese solar / batt production lines to protect our fracking exports. What do you expect?
No.1840324
>>1840319 (me)
FYI, in China, it's about 3.5 cents per kWh for solar and 2.5 cents kWh for battery right now. Frackgas LCOEs to 8 cents, but sells for 4 cents stateside.
Prices will likely drop another 30% this year, and see a slower 10% decline in the coming years, so if you actually want a sustainable planet, back the Chicomms.
No.1840387
>libertard making yet another degrowth thread
>nah nah bro fusion can't support everyone because… I read the research bro!
This is why the government loves anarchists. You guys are just a spoiler who ultimately kill themselves off. The funniest of you guys are the ones who claim you're still "marxists" when you haven't even read the basic outline of Communism.
No.1840437
>>1840387Blind techno-optimism is for libs.
No.1840448
>>1840175this is why we need socialism. duh.
No.1840471
>>1840203I suggest we start by ruthlessly destroying the fertility cult called Christianity.
No.1840472
>>1840387I love all you useless poli sci fucks who think this is just about praying to the right energy god and telling the engineers to make it so.
No.1840473
>>1840472I mean isn't it? We already have the technology to beat climate change, the problem is politics/econ
No.1840483
>>1840437nobody here is blindly techno-optimist
if anything modern environmental academia is so delusional that seriously thinks that small "peasant" property and "traditional agricultural practises" can save us from ecological disaster
No.1840630
>>1840175>from going back the bronze age to complete extinction of the only intelligent species in this part of the galaxy.
>the next century is going to be nothing but misery, possibly the bleakest thing humans will ever have to go through. mass starvation and migration on levels never seen before…You are talking like such pursues are more than your feelings. In my novelic tale, I do not care whether gloomy clouds or steadiness awaits. After all, the tale is still a tale.
No.1840633
>>1840175I think about this almost every day OP.
Capitalism is finally coming to its end, yet it will cost us everything. Every dream of a revolution is gone. Every person who gave their life for the cause, in vain.
The only hope is a massive revolution in the next few years
No.1840641
Humanity is going to survive and ultimately bounce back, but it's going to be a terrible century. Probably the worst in terms of the absolute magnitude of suffering people endure. The most difficult part will be preserving knowledge and technical capacities, maybe above all modern philosophy of science itself. People tend to cope with horror by retreating into irrationality.
No.1840883
>>1840228It isn't the threat of issues with the plant themselves, the issue is that both heavy water and breeder reactors (strictly, a subset of heavy water reactors) are both capable of producing nuclear weapons material (plutonium-239).
Honestly I think the mechanically confined fusion initiative has a lot of promise, though it's got some serious issues (needing a giant ball of molten lead, for example)
No.1840889
>>1840175Frinch is flooding into the bank every time a bus parks up outside 😭
No.1841019
>>1840883>the issue is that both heavy water and breeder reactors (strictly, a subset of heavy water reactors) are both capable of producing nuclear weapons material (plutonium-239).That's a moot point given that nuclear weapons already exist and are being made regardless of the presence of breeder reactors or not.
No.1841029
>we sit back and do nothing and still win???
Yes. The ruling classes always destroy themselves
No.1841064
>>1841029But they keep generating their successors. That's the point where they need to be stopped.
No.1841320
>>1841019I think there's probably a point to be had that if breeders were as common as coal plants, that making nuclear weapons by the millions would be easy enough that any country could do it.
Whether or not that is a good thing is an exercise for the reader.
No.1841936
>we
WE are not gonna do anything but shit and scream because WE are irrelevant
shikata ga nai
No.1845923
>>1840308Forget about the population for a moment. if we collapse (which we will) there is no coming back. because we've exhausted all the easily accessible energy. why does this matter?
because you can't operate/create the heavy machinery and modern infrastructure required to extract fossil fuels that are deep in the earths crust, without having access to the amount of energy we have today.
you can't create a nuclear power facility without easily accessible fossil fuels if we start from scratch.
if we collapse, we collapse forever.
if we are to survive, it is of utmost importance to immediately and violently if needed to establish a world dictatorship. because nothing short of that would stop the dumb fucking capitalists from mindlessly throwing away all of our energy and destroying modern civilization potentially forever.
but does anyone have any real solutions?? everyone is afraid of climate change but not our mindless energy consumption and growth. no one is paying attention to this, which arguably is an even bigger problem than climate change.
No.1845954
>>1840387Are you retarded? I never said that fusion can't help. I don't know if you've noticed but WE DON'T HAVE THE FUCKING TECH. and we can't just bet on it's feasibility any time soon.
>>1845946I'm not very fond of our species either but our collapse will create a lot of suffering to animals.
No.1845960
>>1840175>>1845923Let it collapse. Humanity needs to "contract". Maybe we shouldn't have access to those fossil fuels. Billions of years ago, cyanobacteria pumped oxygen to the atmosphere, changing the chemistry of the ocean and the lithosphere too. The oxygen lowered the concentration of methane in the air, plunging the world into an ice age where glaciers reached the equator and cyanobacteria died in mass. What's happening is "natural", as in we are part of nature. And not unique. Maybe we are the only living being on Earth capable of contracting in a controlled manner. Maybe we will. But I don't think so.
No.1845970
>>1845960It's definitely "natural". but the sad thing is that we're the only intelligent thing on this planet and we've wasted our intelligence on mindless consumption.
No.1845987
shut the fuck up guys i've solved climate change just visit our climate collapse thread
No.1845989
>>1845985Christianity is definitely a stumbling block. like another anon put it "fertility cult".
>>1845987lol
No.1845992
>>1845970We are not "intelligent". We just have the capability of language, which lets us accumulate knowledge faster than any other living being. We aren't special.
No.1845994
>>1845992Somewhat disagree. we are intelligent, as in we have enough to know what we need to do. the issue is that our desires override us. I get the angle you're coming from and yes, we aren't special.
No.1846012
>>1845994Another thing is that, we have the potential to be even better. if all life in existence walks our path then that means that true intelligent life is nonexistent. this should scare you. without intelligence no one and nothing can hope to fix reality.
No.1846015
>>1846012human ego is blinding you and preventing you from wanting to establish lines of communication with the dolphins. you're not a revisionist stalinist are you?
No.1846018
>>1846015Me? no no no I'm just your typical human spiciest supremacist!!!
No.1846019
>>1846018>speciest*that can't spell
No.1846060
>>1845994>the issue is that our desires override us>>1846015>human ego is blinding youIf you want to kys, leave us out of it. Otherwise stop being mystics and have sex
No.1846083
>>1840175>the next century is going to be nothing but misery, possibly the bleakest thing humans will ever have to go through. mass starvation and migration on levels never seen beforeyes, things will drastically worsen in the near future, however these conditions will be the prelude to the triumph of labour over capital.
When that time comes, we must be organized and prepared to play our roles in the final act of the sacred war for the liberation of mankind. Even if we do not get to live to that day we must still fight for it in our own times, and we must pass down the torch to a new generation of communists just like comrades before us have done for the last 200 years.
Our cause is righteous and we will win. Never lose hope anons.
No.1846089
>>1846083That heroic drama is one of the first things you're going to need to abolish.
No.1846126
My wife is a bitch. Fortified in the bunkers, sure, but she is a bitch. She's always been my neighbor you see, even before I was placed here.
No.1846154
>>1846083fucking idiot dumb fuck
millenarists like you who think proles need to experience death, catastrophes and immiseration to move the struggle forward should get hanged by actual socialists
No.1846338
>>1840175>We're going to run out of fossil fuels at the rate modern civilization exists.meme. There's more than enough fossil fuels to support civilization, the question is at what environmental cost?
We will run out of fresh water long before we run out of fossil fuels
No.1846717
>>1846083I am afraid this may be impossible if we destroy the environment. What will be left? How many thousands, if not millions of years will it take for Earth to be amicable to humans again?
How will future generations imagine a better future when their ancestors destroyed the whole planet? They are no different from us. IMO, either we win now or defeat is absolute.
No.1848171
>>1846717the pic you used is corny and you should feel bad for posting it, fag
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