No.1837939
>>1837890I dont think theyre productive but logo and haz calling them imperialist labor aristocrats is beyond retarded.
No.1837951
based cockshott absolutely destroys Miga communists.
>>1837939if you don't think they are productive then you are not a marxist
No.1837962
>Cockshott platforms haz by dignifying his bullshit with a response
the west has sincerely fallen. i suspect that billions may die.
No.1837967
>>1837962dr. cockshott rexeets haz all the time
No.1837969
>>1837955the online western left is such a fucking joke, holy hell
yeah let's have a guy published by Monthly Review debate some hack e-celeb
No.1837975
>Baristas have an unusually high rate of exploitation
Not only did he say they are productive he is saying they are more than within their right to unionise (the thing Hazoids inherently object to because they arnet TRUE Proles). Penisthumper has done it again.
No.1837981
>>1837966he basically calls land a nonce just a few moments later
No.1837985
>>1837890I can't understand this Haz guy. Americans are so fucking retarded.
No.1837993
>>1837985He's a Lebanese Maronite though
No.1837998
>Are Baristas Productive?
I don't know why this is such a "thing". Why the flying fuck does anyone care?
No.1838036
>>1837998right wing culture war bullshit. haz al din is a "MAGA communist" and he has absorbed the notion that baristas are bluehaired woke liberals, therefore not proletarian "in spirit" but he needs to legitimize this idea economically by butchering marx
No.1838041
>haztards in the YT comments be like
"thank you mr. cockshott I respect you so much (but disagree)"
they can't explain why they disagree because they only have feels over reals
No.1838042
>>1837890>not even this guy that gets sucked off by everyone here knows what the fuck "productive labor" actually means w.r.t. marxismWhy are all these dumbshit "intellectuals" idolized by leftoids?
>>1837939What you "think" is irrelevant. Productive vs unproductive does not mean worthwhile vs not worthwhile. It's hiring for use-value vs hiring as an investment. A clown hired for my child's birthday is not "useless", it just doesn't make me money. Baristas clearly make their bosses money.
>>1837998Because people who watch and care about streamers are dumbfuck petit-bourgeois with way too much free time. Can't expect them to know about communism or care about things that matter to the struggle.
No.1838043
>>1837993he's an english speaking burger culture warrior larping as a communist
No.1838053
>>1837890Aren't labour aristocrats (PMCs) skilled white collar workers, not service workers in general.
No.1838056
Why are baristas the wedge issue?
No.1838059
Where was that one Marx/Engels quote about unproductive labor still being proletarian?
No.1838060
>>1838056Haz, Logo, and twitter MAGAcommies have this weird hate boner for them. I really dont get it.
No.1838064
>>1838056>>1838060see
>>1838036it's 100% culture war 0% political economy
No.1838070
>>1837890Haz and the other infracels are retarded but I'm not sure if a guy who claimed that gays exploit the proletariat by not having children is in much of a place to criticize.
No.1838072
>>1838070To be more charitable, he said anyone who doesn't participate in reproductive labor is engaging in exploitation no matter their sexual preferences. Gays can do reproductive labor through raising the children of others.
No.1838075
>>18380701. not what he said
2. if I'm wrong today and right tomorrow, being wrong today doesn't nullify me being right tomorrow.
3. Joseph Stalin actually suppressed homosexuality in the USSR by bringing back anti-sodomy laws that Lenin had gotten rid of. This had real material consequences, unlike whatever Cockshott simply said in the past. Nobody cares whether someone is "in a position to criticize" it's such a liberal way to internalize things. "oh you were hecking cancelled last year, you can't talk this year!" nobody cares.
No.1838078
>>1838070Damn. I didn't know a PhD who has written about Marxist economics and computer science his entire life is suddenly wrong in his field of expertise because he expressed a cringe opinion on an unrelated issue. Thanks for enlightening me!
No.1838088
>>1838056>>1838060Before starbucks was big most coffee shops were only in expensive urban areas. American conservative's in the 90s/00s honed in on that as a symbol of rich effete liberal elites.
<You have to speak fancy European just to get coffee! <I want coffee flavored coffee! Several decades latter, starbucks is everywhere but some still hold onto the fumes of outdated cultural symbols and apply them to baristas.
No.1838094
>>1838042>True proletarians don’t use the Internet!You’re genuinely no different than the people you hate you shut in retard
Please stop projecting
No.1838104
>Cockshott responding to HazI literally never even heard of Haz before people started talking about him on here. Now I find him rubbing shoulders with Dugin and Cockshott. What the fuck.
>>1838060I suspect that given the Left’s relative impotence, the only place it could turn is constantly trying to refine itself. Determine who is really “in” and who is “out” with the former being as small a group as you can get and the latter being the rest of the world. I stand in an odd position personally because I’m a white grocery worker. So I imagine Haz would consider me to not be a “real prole” because I’m not working at the steel mill for 12 hour days and I’m not socially conservative. By contrast my race makes me a labor aristocrat to some.
No.1838114
>>1838072>he said anyone who doesn't participate in reproductive labor is engaging in exploitation no matter their sexual preferences.shrinking the reserve army of labour raises wages though
No.1838117
>>1838114>reserve army of labournot a thing under socialism
No.1838120
>>1838117I'm talking about under capitalism. did I miss the context? my bad.
No.1838141
>>1838072>reproductive laboroh yeah we needed even more retarded lib terms
No.1838142
was a video even needed when this is fucking basic marxism? wait, is the video even about marxism?
No.1838146
>>1838145Cockshott isn't a marxist.
No.1838168
This thread belongs in /siberia/.
>>1838072>To be more charitable, he said anyone who doesn't participate in reproductive labor is engaging in exploitation no matter their sexual preferences.Is he suggesting collective child-rearing? Because if not, that's actual nonsense.
No.1838170
>>1838143she probably does
No.1838172
>>1838168Most of this thread is butthurt slander from either
a. Infracels
b. Heinrichtards
No.1838205
>>1838146That's a good thing, Marxism reached it's theoretical and practical limitations in the 50s and it's past time for the movement to evolve
No.1838206
>>1837890Service jobs aren't productive 99% of the time
No.1838207
>>1838206Depends on the service, prickshoot showed mathematically that coffee workers are not only productive but exploited at a rate of 1200%
No.1838222
>>1838141are you being stupid or are you conflating reproductive labor with reproductive rights?
No.1838230
>>1837890Cockshott rejects Hegel so I'm not sure why you hold his opinion as if it were Marxist insight.
No.1838233
>>1838230Marx rejected Hegel though
No.1838237
>>1838230>rejects HegelThat's a good thing. Not that Cockshott doesn't have a stupid anglo understanding of marxism anyway.
No.1838247
>>1838230ok but plenty of Marxists reject Hegel:
>Third, the structuralist revolution beginning in Russian formalism and signaling the fundamental significance of the ‘linguistic turn’ in semiotics developed by Jacobson and Saussure (and differently by Wittgenstein and Peirce) was applied by Levi-Strauss, Barthes, Lacan, Althusser and the early Foucault experimented with a replacement for the dialectic. Finally, in this same genealogical strand, the inception of Nietzschean Marxism, that swapped Nietzsche (and Spinoza) for Hegel, by thinkers as diverse as Deleuze and Guattari, Derrida, Lyotard and Foucault.Althusserians, Analytic Marxists not to mention postmodern Marxists and post-marxists who combine post-structuralism with Marxism. The idea that Hegelianism is integral to Marxism is just wrong. It was an intellectual current of the time and even the mature Marx breaks with Hegel somewhat.
No.1838249
>>1838233This.
The whole evolution of Marx's thought as well as the other young Hegelians was basically becoming post-Hegelians. People just act like Hegel was the end and then Marxism is only Hegel applied to economics. But that's not true there was an entire post Hegelian materialist turn as Marx was influenced by Feuerbach for example. Hegel is an idealist and Marx is a materialist so in a real sense Marx already rejected and transcended Hegel.
i'm sick of people syaing rejecting Hegel is bad when Marx ALREADY FUCKING REJECTED HEGEL. Marx is a
POST-Hegelian.
No.1838267
>>1838230>>1838247Cockshott rejects Hegel because he's a Maoist and Mao's dialectic wasn't Hegelian. Hegelians will claim this is because Mao didn't understand Hegel, while Maoists will claim that its only in the application of Marxist dialectics to the situation of the Chinese revolution that dialectics are truly concretized and Marxist dialectics reach their full flowering, i.e. Mao's dialectic is superior to Hegel as it is more materialist.
The structural Marxism of Louis Althusser attempts to purge Marxism of Hegelianism and humanism. Althusser holds that Marx's primary philosophical antecedent is not Hegel or Feuerbach, but Spinoza.
Althusser's whole project of rejecting Hegel for Spinoza, etc. is basically just a rationalization of Mao as he turned away from orthodox marxism-leninism in favor of Mao. There's a reason Cockshott's only interview with doug lain for example is on the cultural revolution.
There's an annoying tendency of people who don't like Cockshott to ascribe stances to him which he did not originate but are instead just bog standard Marxism or are attributable to his adherence to 1960s/70s MZT and its full rationalization in western Marxism in the form of Althusserianism.
I have a feeling the accusations of Cockshott being scientistic or positivist are literally just due to a combination of posters not being well read and the fact that he's literally a british scientist. Alot of the criticisms of him here for example rejecting the notion of a philosophical subject mirror 1970s and 1980s commentaries on Althusser that regularly accused him of dogmatism or functionalism, closing down Marxist analyses of history and change while emptying political struggle of a historical actor: the subject of history itself.
99% of the time people shitting on Cockshott don't really have a problem with Cockshott they actually have a problem either just understanding basic Marxism or what their problem really is, is with Mao, Althusser, or any other number of figures that Cockshott is basically just repeating anyway.
>Althusser was fascinated by Spinoza’s philosophical strategies, in particular the transformation of a medieval conception of a transcendental God as the cause and origin of all things into an infinite Substance that was able to think God and Nature simultaneously. For Althusser, it was this novel principle of Nature’s infinite diversity and non-totalizable form, expressing or producing itself in every finite existence, which helped him think the question of structure anew. No longer could structure be thought as simply containing, in a latent form, its various elements (however distinctive these might appear in themselves). Now it had a form of complexity and causality that was only understandable through its effects, thereby engendering these elements with a degree of autonomy, singularity, and specificity of their own.
>In Spinoza’s Ethics, Althusser also claimed to discover the matrix of every possible theory of ideology: Spinoza offered an answer to the question of why men fight as bravely for servitude as for freedom. By refusing to treat ideology as simply ignorance or superstition, he chose to examine this world of the imaginary in relation to the materiality of bodies, which he viewed as aspects of thought and extension respectively. In so doing, Spinoza avoided every illusion of an originary, constitutive subject and so helped furnish Althusser’s own quest to develop a science freed from subjectivism in all its forms. What some critics identified as Althusser’s erasure of the subject, or its sheer absorption by a powerful structure, has been viewed as a kind of Marxist heresy in some circles because in Althusser’s account the agent of political change appeared all but lost.
<When in his later writings Althusser suggests that the materialism of the encounter is “a process that has no subject,” does he not implore us to combine this image of the conjunction of elements, “raining down” like an infinity of atoms, whose singular relations and individualities constitute the subject merely as their ideological (or imaginary) effects? It is these concrete yet seemingly transitory combinations that the materialist philosopher studies. Historical materialism does not commence with an original abstract picture of man, or with a conception of human essence, as do theories of the social contract. Marx, like Spinoza, precludes essentialism by understanding the essence of any “thing” as that which corresponds to its actuality and concrete relations, and thus to a form of materialism. Social relations, economic relations of exchange (of wealth, of capital) cannot be reduced to relations merely between subjects, since they involve relationships with many different kinds of thing (in nature, technology, society, etc.), each of which reproduce and shape social relations of production, as well as the forms of struggle emerging through them and unfolding within the materiality of ideology… In this image of materialism, anything we might call “the subject” is found only within this social morphology of relation and combination where forms of struggle commence and where politics constantly reshapes itself in the process. No.1838269
service industry work is useless labor
No.1838273
>>1838269So is the vast majority of commodity production, most of it rots on shelves or just gets trashed
No.1838274
>>1838206it's a question of whether or not you add value to a commodity through your labor power, which baristas in this case do by assembling the ingredients on-site into the finished commodity, which contains more value than the sum of its parts, that surplus being gotten through the labor. This has to be done on-site to ensure freshness and customization. It hasn't been automated yet..
No.1838276
>>1838269So is the vast majority of commodity production, most of it rots on shelves or just gets trashed
No.1838277
>>1838206it's a question of whether or not you add value to a commodity through your labor power, which baristas in this case do by assembling the ingredients on-site into the finished commodity, which contains more value than the sum of its parts, that surplus being gotten through the labor. This has to be done on-site to ensure freshness and customization. It hasn't been automated yet..
No.1838278
>>1838276that is a problem of distribution not production
No.1838287
>>1837890Haz is a maga republican we do not need to seek his approval. The dude hasn't even read the the principles of communism.
No.1838314
>>1838143she doesn't actually have a dick she's just a failson who worked for blackhammer
No.1838354
they are trying to fight Cockshott in twitter comments. Imagine thinking that you are more autistic then Cockshott. Of all their faux pas this is the most hilarious
No.1838356
>>1838354screencap? i dont have x/twitter
No.1838357
>>1838230absolutely everyone who claims Hegel is a psued moron. Zizek being the prime example
No.1838360
>>1838230I agree.
>>1838143>>1838314>>1838349What are you talking about? lmao
It's none of your business what genitals they have.
That said, I really want to have sexual relations with the barista in this pic
>>1838139Here's why this is a problem
I'm not the kinda guy who sits around thinking like "would I fuck this person or this dude or this lady and so on". So normally it's like, I can't really tell why I want what I want. But in this case I can and it annoys me.
No.1838391
>>1838143What actually happened to her? Is she still alive? I remember her threatening me because I was white, and has blocked me afterwards.
No.1838396
>>1838386It’s actually sad Haz has managed to convince some probably well meaning young lonely men that such arguments like
>Muh experience Actually hold any weight in this discussion
No.1838397
>>1838146He's afflicted by Maoist brainrot, but he isn't insufferable like most of them. For example, he supports Russia, which is always a good thing.
No.1838400
>>1838399Escuse me? Did you just try to correct Professor Coxhot?
No.1838402
>>1838396If people pay more to go to "aesthetic" and trendy restaurants it isn't the labor of the worker serving food that is generating that value but the labor of architect and interior designers.
No.1838403
>>1838400behead those who insult cockshott
No.1838419
>>1838402Yes it is. People don't go into a restaurant eat nothing and stare at the walls you stupid nonce. I can small the hazoid brain rot from here. Begone.
Regardless to all that, this is not the majority of restaurants and coffee outlets, it is a minority, the vast service industry is budget establishments, such as the ones described by willyfire, as well as other budget independent establishments. Shut up. You are wrong, you will always be wrong, your mewling and wailing and "um well akshually" is just that, flailing, begging, pleading, but you are are wrong, you don't understand marx, your analysis is incorrect, you have been hoodwinked by grifters, thats it, move on.
No.1838425
>>1837890Cockshott was always a TERF lib, this development should suprise nobody.
No.1838452
>>1838443>luxurious ballroomCoffee shops serve food you dumb hazoid fuckwit
No.1838453
behead vibe pseuds
No.1838461
Laugh at Hazoid nerds, Ridicule hazoid posts, physically attack hazoids
No.1838473
>>1837890OP already mixed up terminology. The dichotomy of productive and unproductive labor is separate from the labor aristocracy question.
No.1838497
>>1838467didn't haz get beaten up by some retard drama streamer called zherka or something?
No.1838498
>>1838497*real life streamer i guess, one of those morons that just walks around bothering everyone
No.1838517
I don't care, let's go rob some cops
No.1838518
>>1837890He's right but everyone that has actually read Marx already knows that, it's one of the very first bits of Capital vol 2.
Also every worker in the first world is basically a "labor aristocrat" although that term is unnecessarily loaded and simply a description of your connection to imperialism.
No.1838519
>>1838425>>1838429So im actually trans and given that Cockshott is an extremely hard working 72 year old, I'll give him a pass on his thoughts about the gays.
No.1838525
>>1838284>>1838168He did suggest collective child-rearing (free daycares are a form of such)
>>1838072He didn't say that
>>1838070He didn't say that either. I would argue that a person who is homophobic because they resent the class position of most gays (who, like the Jews, are in that class position because all the poor ones were murdered) came away from that video less homophobic.
No.1838532
>>1838526Alright sorry for bothering you mademoiselle or monsieur
No.1838535
>>1838070that isn't what he said, he simply said they don't have children so are more likely to be able to spend their money on property and such and then become boug or petit boug, which is just a simple fact
No.1838608
>>1838360>It's none of your business what genitals they have.Uphold trans rights but the idea that you shouldn't know what kind of genitals someone has till the very night you sleep with them needs to die. In fact, a big part of practicing safe sex would involve knowing things like that in advance so you can prepare properly. It's not transphobic to want to know if your girlfriend is cis or trans. This kind of puritan morality frankly reminds me of the old cishet practices of "never ask a woman her age/weight. Never ask a man his income". Childish.
No.1838667
>>1838608How? What pairs of genitals you have isn't going to impact your STD status, if you're a man you're wearing a condom to be safe whether you're having vaginal or anal sex, they don't have separate condoms for anal
No.1838684
>>1838608I was speaking on this specifc case of two pictures on the internet but go off kween
No.1838743
Haz is a piece of shit but Cockshott is homophobic and just as bad
No.1838835
>>1838743>Cockshott is homophobicno he isn't
No.1838837
>>1838835He is but he's still miles better than Haz
No.1838840
>>1838837>>1838743the absolute state of this site
No.1838860
>>1838743sorry. I didnt know, I will have to ignore any valuable insight he shares from now on because his homophobia makes him officially a codemned sinner.
No.1838922
>>1838837You haven't seen Cockshot and Haz in the same room. For all you hnow they're the same person in different lighting conditions / a wig.
Neither carry themselves with any dignity, neither have a fursona, and neither adapt to criticism.
No.1838980
>>1838667Nta, but sex isn't about dodging STDs, if you want a dick you should get a dick not a pussy. Genitals do matter.
With that said I shan't have sex with anyone that does not possess a dick. As my sexuality is characterized by desiring dick.
Respectfully, kill yourself panggot biggot.
Signed:
𝓐𝓷𝓸𝓷 No.1839006
>>1838608It's the same nonsense that very spectacularly killed Miriam Rivera.
Retards will jump through any hoops to not have adult conversations around sex.
More people should just bow our of seeing.
No.1839050
>>1838360>What are you talking about? lmao>It's none of your business what genitals they have.chill out friend its just gossip on an imageboard
No.1839356
>>1838146If Cockshott isn't a Marxist, then I hate Marxism.
No.1839361
>>1839356That's fine, the proletarian movement doesn't need people for whom communism isn't a necessity.
No.1839366
>>1839361If Cockshott isn't a communist, then I hate communism too.
I refuse to associate myself with a "communism" or "Marxism" that has been colonized by illiterate pseuds and their fellow cult members.
No.1839369
>>1839366You're repeating yourself.
>colonized by illiterate pseuds and their fellow cult membersThat's literally what you're doing right now. Pissing your pants because your idol gets called out for having a flawed deeply liberal understanding of marxism and communism,
just on different points than the Infrared retard.
>>1838204>wowie he went to expensive universities and wrote a book and collaborates with a philosopher (lol)I'll never fucking understand the obsession you idiots have with petit-bourgeois "intellectuals". Yeah dude communism is about big computers and solving the calculation problem and wasting everyone's time with useless fucking questions. Fucking middle-class brain disease.
At least the manchildren consuming Haz's garbage don't think themselves smart for doing so.
No.1839372
>>1838168>This thread belongs in /siberia/.No dude we need a whole ass thread about a needlessly long youtube video debooooooonking some braindead e-celeb about basic fucking marxism.
No.1839396
>>1839369> at the least the manchildren consuming haz's garbage don't think themselves smart for doing sothey absolutely do
>the thread has descended into genital talk the absolute state of this site I swear
No.1839567
>>1839495Don't they need a robotics mechanic on sight for whenever these machines fuck up? That just means the few employees there have EVEN MORE leverage should they threaten to organize, strike, etc.
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