/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>1837634
>Is Israel still a "labor-zionist government"?
no and it hasn't been for decades. Even Netanyahu specifically has been PM of israel since 2009, so for the last 15 years it has been right wing even by normie standards. Young people today have only known an Israel controlled by a guy who is basically the Trump of the levant.

prior to the yom kippur war in '73 Israel had a center left socdem-ish government. This was the era of leaders like Golda Meir, however what happened is due to Israel getting surprised in that conflict, the Israeli left in general and Meir in particular were "widely blamed for the country being caught by surprise during the war of 1973" and this lead to a permanent realignment to the right in Israel beginning with the next election which was just a few months after.

as for why labor zionism was popular id imagine starting from the early 20th century jews in general were more left wing and indeed many leaders of radical left wing political movements were disproportionately jewish. This combined with just coming off the holocaust carried out by a far right government in Germany obviously meant politics were going to lean to the left at least a little.

However I think it was inevitable that the political movement of zionism, once embodied in the actually existing state Israel, would have to become more right wing as jews in Israel ceased to see themselves as a permanent diaspora minority in need of protection in a broader hostile society to a rooted and grounded people tied to a particular piece of land in the levant. Thus their motivation to promote multiculturalism and toleration declined and they became standard nationalists like any other people with its own nation-state which needed to be defended from outside hostile forces, which inevitably had a conservatizing effect.

Any group or person tied to a particular geographical region and/or piece of land is necessarily going to be more right wing as geographical rootedness enables provincialism and tribalism, which is why homeowners are more right wing than renters, people working in jobs that have to be done in a particular place (ex: extractive industries like mining, farming, ranching) are more right wing than people with jobs that can done anywhere (ex: services, retail, etc.).

>>1837634
Stalin until he realized he made a blunder.

History does not exist.
I will not look at the past in context, but instead project my understanding of the present backwards in time and judge things from that perspective.

>Is Israel still a "labor-zionist government"?

They're arresting and banning Communists from public politics so probably not

>>1837634
>Why did the Soviets support Israel?
*Stalin
He was going against the party line before conceding in the end.

hitler bad
holocaust bad
therefore jews good
pretty sure that is the entire logic behind most people's opinions on isn'treal at the time

Labor Zionism was popular because many Jews in eastern Europe were poor, working class, whatever. Since they more or less supported the RSDLP, the Bund, etc, and Zionism was competing with them, they adopted some bullshit socialist phraseology to cover up their nationalist-colonialist project

The Soviets supported Israel because Stalin thought it would help him in the Cold War somehow. This is because Stalin was an idiot who consistently betrayed socialist principles and should not be considered anything other than the worst internal enemy of the workers' movement in the 20th century

Labor zionism is dead

I don't know what the excuse is. Like most Stalinists, they just pretend it didn't happen and go about preparing the next great sellout of the working class

>>1837703
Yeah man tell me more about how Stalin killed all the people who made the Bolshevik revolution

>>1837732
Stalin genocide of Crimean Tatars, Stalin putting Romanov ANTI-LGBT laws in legislation and support of Zionism are inexcusable no matter what you say

>>1837634
Cause the soviets were still spooked on nations.

>>1837776
Yeah I agree with you except the genocide of Crimean tartars part cause I doubt that happened

>>1837785
I mean they were mass deported away from Crimea yes?

>>1837785
He ethnic cleansed Crimea of native Tatars and put Ukrainian and Russian settlers there, not even the Romanovs did it

>>1837792
I mean yeah CIA bad but you can still accept Stalin actually did bad things though

>>1837796
Yes, and I do, but that post just reeks of liberalism.
>Stalin bad because he personally decided all these Soviet policies
Which is inevitably linked to
>Stalin was a dictator whose personality shaped the USSR instead of real factors
We factually know both of these things to be 1) utterly false and 2) commonly used bourgeois propaganda

>>1837640
>the Trump of the levant.
He's the Hitler of the Levant. The Settler Netanyahu (who went to high school in Philadelphia) actually served in the IDF as a butcher when he was just a teenager and came to the USA several times in his 20s to lobby on behalf of settler interests. He publicly debated a Palestinian in front of an American audience in the 1970s and was pushing the idea that "from the river to the sea" was an antisemitic slogan even back then. He then proceeded to climb to the top of Likud: a political party that was so far right that even the US and England briefly considered them terrorists during the era following WW2.
>>1837634
>And what is the MLoid excuse for the Soviet support of Israel?
Poor geopolitical analysis in the immediate aftermath of the holocaust. A prominent Palestinian (Al-Husseini) and many Arab leaders were allied with the nazis during WW2, expressed antisemitic sentiment, butchered non-European Jews that were indigenous to the levant and the middle east and central asia, etc. One of the central conceits of zionism "labor" or otherwise was that Jews would be butchered unless they were given their own homeland back. Since the old testament is part of the cultural superstructure of all 3 major abrahamic religions, the dubious myth that Palestine is some kind of permanent homeland of all Jews was bought hook line and sinker by many cultures with Abrahamic roots. This included the "Atheist" and "materialist" USSR which still had strong connections to its cultural roots, as evidenced by the rollbacks in militant Atheism following WW2 , and the slow renormalization of the Orthodox church. Stalin, perhaps wishing to push back against false rumors that he was an antisemite, trying to make up for realpolitik moves like the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and perhaps as well trying to live up to his original party position as a sort of protector of minority nationalities, supported the creation of Israel. The idea that Zionism is actually a racist, settler-colonialist, and even antisemitic ideology, is taken for granted today, but it took decades of post-WW2 life for that idea to catch on with most people. WW2 and the holocaust has such "gravity" and Israel is (falsely) treated as synonymous with "Jews". For decades people couldn't disentangle the false idea that the settler colonial nation of Israel was a "safe space" for "holocaust survivors" to get away from European antisemitism. European Antisemitism was never fixed, it just learned to collaborate with zionism. Hitler's vision of mass deportations of Jews to west Asia lived on, ironically, in the form of Israel.
>>1837685
It's more like
>hitler bad
>holocaust bad
>jews victims
>therefore israel "safe space" for all jews, whether jews agree or not
>fuck arabs, who cares about them

>>1837819
I forgot to mention that a lot of this zionism bullshit predates WW2 and the holocaust as well. You have zionism as a movement among European jews growing during the 1800s, with no consensus on where the Jewish homeland should be (some proposed Argentina, ironically, where some of the nazis would end up fleeing later on) , and zionists like Theordor Herzl were explicitly antisemitic in the sense that he thought Jews and Gentiles could not possibly live side by side in Europe, and Herzl was also an imperialist Germanophile in the sense that he wanted Israel to be a German settler colony for Jews. Like a sort of semi-autonomous vassal of the German nation. Then you have Brits trying to fuck with the crumbling Ottoman empire by mandating Palestine be a homeland for Jews, because Brits were antisemitic as fuck and trying to get rid of Jews in Britain (not for the first time in their history since they had expelled Jews for 300 years between King Edward and Cromwell). Balfour declaration partly achieved normalizing and legally enshrining the settler colonialist idea that European Jews "belonged" in Palestine.

>>1837824
part of zionisms development was reaction to shit like the Dreyfus affair which showed anti semitism in europe hadn't gone away even in relatively tolerant western european countries like France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Yellin-Mor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ana_Pauker

Interesting.

Zionism over a century ago wasn't the zionism we've known for the last century, durr.

>>1837819
Persecution of Arab Jews started right after Nakba as retaliation tho, it still stupid and uncalled for but didn't happen for religious reasons or because they hated the Jews out of the blue, even then, MOSSAD did several false flags across SWANA countries to terrorize Jews there and coerce them to move to zionist entity

Some Arab leaders collaborated with Nazis because they were under the boot of Britain and France, for them, Britain and France were the actual nazis, and even then, the majority actually fought for the Allies

>>1837892
It was always the same garbage colonial project

>>1837898
Zionism was originally a very progressive movement.

>>1837986
How do you figure that the inbred stepchild of german nationalism was progressive

>>1837898
I don't disagree, but it's hard to compare that to the mainstream zionist project that's been killing people en masse.

>>1837776
>Stalin genocide of Crimean Tatars
Actually:
>But at the first victorious uprising of the French proletariat, which Louis Napoleon is striving with all his might to conjure up, the Austrian Germans and Magyars will be set free and wreak a bloody revenge on the Slav barbarians. The general war which will then break out will smash this Slav Sonderbund and wipe out all these petty hidebound nations, down to their very names.
>The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that, too, is a step forward.
https://marxists.architexturez.net/archive/marx/works/1849/01/13.htm
Chad Engels would have supported this progressive act by glorious Stalin! /s

>>1837896
>Persecution of Arab Jews started right after Nakba as retaliation tho
It definitely accelerated after the Nakba but this isn't accurate. I think the baddest pogrom in Iraq was the Farhud which was in 1941. Like… one thing pro-Israel people will say is that a majority of Israeli Jews are not actually European, they're from predominantly Muslim countries. And that's true. But the dark side of this story which they don't mention is that these people are (generalizing a bit) are the base of the right-wing vote in Israel and are militaristic and into MIGA for real. Really veering into fascism. This gives you a sense of it (one the rapper's parents are emigres from Yemen and Iran).

>>1837640
>people working in jobs that have to be done in a particular place (ex: extractive industries like mining, farming, ranching) are more right wing than people with jobs that can done anywhere (ex: services, retail, etc.).
This is also a very smart and materialist point. Extractive industries located in particular places (or land) can only be subdivided so many times until it's worthless. Point is, "we" keep possession of that stuff and foreigners, outsiders, etc. can "get out."

>>1837640
>>1838294
>workers who earn enough to have reserves and become petit bourgeois are more reactionary than proletarians
regurgitating marx but more retarded

>>1838297
most extractive workers aren't petit bourgeois. There are geospatial aspects to the relations of the means of production not just hierarchical ones. see: https://archive.ph/91Z5c