No.1824067
>>1824057i'd definitely prefer a theocratic republica to a nationalist european dictatorship (aka Franco ᴉuᴉlossnW etc) as they are much more similiar to Saudi Arabia than Iran
No.1824073
>>1824067That only tells me you prefer theocracy to totalitarianism.
The real question was whether you'd rather lead in civic nationalist states in the contemporary West or Iran.
No.1824075
>>1824073ᴉuᴉlossnW's Italy was civic nationalist until 1938 when they applied Hitler racial laws
No.1824076
>>1824075In the contemporary West*
No.1824080
>>1824076it's not a matter of nationalism then though
we had clericalism civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism but all of these didnt imply certain civil rights
example is Sweden, Sweden had for the longest time a very ethno nationalist government and yet the people in Sweden enjoyed a lot of liberties
civic nationalism, ethnic nationalism and clericalism dont imply the liberties we have in the west now
if we dont have any clerical states right now in the west is because religion is dead asf
No.1824081
>>1824080>civic nationalism, ethnic nationalism and clericalism dont imply the liberties we have in the west now yes, they do, liberalism and secular values definitely implies the liberties you see in the West.
No.1824082
>>1824081i literally just states an example where ethno nationalism didnt imply the absence of civic liberties you idot
No.1824098
>>1824014Those two are nationalists entities
No.1824119
>>1824098>Saudi Arabia>Iran Not really.
No.1824131
Saudi Arabia is a family-run business.
Iran doesn't like secular nationalist ideology.
They might have the powers entitled to them like your typical nation-state, but the alternative is simply micro-nationalism all the same.
No.1824157
>>1824156
IM NOT FUCKING QUEER THIS SHITFUCKING WEBSITE HAS THE NAZBOL FLAG COVERED IIN TRANS IT'S NOT MY FAULT
No.1824161
>>1824160
least bloodthirsty zigger
also i dont get the hate for nazbols, syncretism is the way or socialism will die in this generation
No.1824167
>>1824119Maybe Saudi Arabia isn't. But Iran is basically 60s Fracoist Spain
No.1824169
>>1824160>>1824161Retard on retard communication
No.1824179
>>1824167this uygha is so retarded…
he got fed the west's lies and he believes them!!
No.1824183
>>1824014citizen of saudi arabia get paid from oil rent, and have good free healthcare and social service
so sure, Im not on board with the whole theocratic thing, theres very limited political freedom, I find the treatment of women awful etc, but still your life would be a lot more comfortable as a saudi citizen than a minimum wage prole in the west
Iran also have a lot of nationalism afaik, its just mixed with clericalism, one does not necessarily prevent the other
Nationalism is the basis for all the social structure, and any relevant socialist movement has used it and will use it as a basis. Internationalism doesnt mean no nations.
Which doesnt mean you shouldnt fight stupid chauvinism and reactionaries defending their porkies on a national basis.
No.1824193
>>1824183>Nationalism is the basis for all the social structureGee, so social structure didn't exist before the 18th century?
No.1824238
>>1824232this is actually hilarious
No.1824291
>>1823868>if instincts are indeed valid then that means tribalism is valid, if tribalism is valid then nationalism is valid by the next logical extension.lmao this is some funny kind of logic. can you define tribalism and demonstrate how it is instinctual? you might be able to do that to so.e satisfactory degree but you take it as self evident, and it isnt. but when you make the jump from tribalism to nationalism, you are going to need to do some serious mental acrobatics to justify that outside it being "common sense"
No.1824296
>>1824291also we go against our instincts and 'nature' all the time, by taking meds or not shitting on the street. it's not an argument for anything
No.1824356
>>1822613>Saudi ArabiaIs what if Ancap really got state.
No.1824601
>>1821973You are genuinely retarded if you think nationalism is not always inhrrently a bourgeois movement where the proletatiat has nothing to gain, even in the imperial periphery and beyond. We are not in the early 20th century anymore, capital has penetrated every last corner of this world and, giving the success of the revolution in shitholes like Imperial Russia, the material conditions are certainly overripe everywhere.
No.1824615
>>1824612he was awful but he wasnt stupid
No.1824620
>>1824615nationalism in the imperial core is chauvinist and reactionary and serves the bourgeoisie. and because you don't hold power, you aren't going to be able to use nationalism to trick the reactionaries the way nationalists are able to use socialism to trick the workers.
No.1824621
>>1824601nationalism tends to unite to bond people who dont get to know each other, it's a "over tribe" feeling of belonging. this is something the socialist state should nurture, i agree that ethno nationalism and civic nationalism are discriminatory in nature but discriminating those same globalists and capitalist outside the obvious need for workers unification will help us
No.1824623
>>1824620why not? Stalin did it awfully well, his great patriotic war become not class war but a fight between two nations
No.1824629
>>1824621maybe it's because I live in a global empire settler state, but I have never once felt a sense of "belonging" to the burger reich, and nobody has ever appealed to me politically by waving a flag and assuming I'm a dumb nationalist rube appealing to my sense of nonexistent nationalism
No.1824630
>>1824627the european nations are oppressed by un-national globalists who dont belong to any country
but i get it now i get it, onlyu non-imperial core nations can have nationalism uh, because it's a "feels good thing" yeee throw back the colonizer nshiet!! but when the european does it it's bad and uncool :(
No.1824633
>>1824629clearly low autism score specimen
No.1824683
>>1824679
i will bow to the amerimutt
the greatest creature the God has ever created
50 percent jewish, 50 percent mexican
100 percent thinking about BBC
No.1824685
Depends on the type of nationalism. One can argue it’s proven itself to be capable of organizing people collectively in circumstances where class has failed. Granted I’m sure I’ll get some flak for this. Sure ethno nationalism is an inherently flawed project and likely doomed, but generic nationalism has shown itself to be robust and, at times, coherent.
No.1824691
>>1824157And yet you feel the need to cling to that flag. Curious
No.1824710
>>1824697Could transition have saved Limonov?
No.1824713
>>1824710im not a transhumanist or a queer :(
No.1824716
>>1824713you sure do seem like one
No.1824918
Yeh it's funny how nationalism tends to end with the nation in question reduced to ruins. But nationalism is just a component of liberalism and inherits all of its contradictions, so it is to be expected.
No.1825000
>>1824713then why flag yourself as one
No.1825001
>>1824630yes. it's based when oppressors rise up. it's cringe when oppressors keep oppressing. at last you truly see.
No.1825183
>>1825001that's exactly my point!!! just what i wanted to say!!!! you're so right!!!!!
No.1829882
>>1821927No this isnt right, the national principle is a necessity for any successful Marxist-Leninist politics in the first world, also beyond any purely tactical considerations national culture and language are immensely important. If we dont use it then we surrender it to the enemy allowing them the full power of its use, nationalism is used by liberals and rightists not because its inherently 'reactionary' but because its one of the only things that they can use to get people to support liberal-capitalism (almost nobody is going to pick up to gun to fight for 'open global markets' or 'pluralist multiparty elections' etc). Also immigration is not internationalism.
>We will have to develop the idea of combining a healthy, properly understood nationalism with proletarian internationalism. Proletarian internationalism should be grounded in such a nationalism in the individual countries. Stalin made it clear that between nationalism properly understood and proletarian internationalism there can be no contradictions. Rootless cosmopolitanism that denies national feelings and the notion of a homeland has nothing in common with proletarians internationalism.- Georgi Dimitrov (leader of the Communist International)
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