No.1817520
>it’s another “Westoid finds a socialist country and proceeds to denounce it for not doing socialism the way he wants it” thread
No.1817522
What doesn't make sense about it?
No.1817529
>>1817520He's just asking a question man
No.1817531
Foodora
No.1817540
>>1817529An incredibly stupid question rooted in atheistic idealism and a sense of entitlement and superiority over the “backward savages”, he’s lucky he’s not around an actual Nicaraguan or he’d get a boot to the face
No.1817543
Honestly, i don't think about the sandinistas, i think their music is cool, but that is it. The country is so small, this discourages me. But i think they are cool, maybe
No.1817545
What's so confusing about them? Seems like your standard ML-turned-socdem-after-1991 party, except that they embraced Liberation Theology and stayed anti-imperialist.
No.1817546
>>1817522I don't find Christianity and Leftism compatible, especially Christianity in combination with a party that used to be ML.
Also it's surprising that they would side with Gaza (Muslims) instead of being Zionists like Christians in the West.
Also Ortega revolutionized himself into rule against a American backed de-facto president and rules as a Junta, but then transforms it into a liberal social democracy? Gets voted out, then sides with liberals?
Gets voted in, becomes de-facto dictator who controls all of government, while his party is supposedly anti-authoritarian left-wing and even has the anarcho flag in its logo.
…wat?
>>1817520Why do you poison the well?
No.1817548
>>1817546You genuinely understand neither politics nor religion and your utter ignorance is only eclipsed by your entitlement
No.1817550
No it's different type of hat
No.1817552
>>1817546Christian Zionism is an exclusively American phenomenon that got exported everywhere else due to American cultural hegemony. Besides the Sandinistas aren't strict ML, they are Liberation Theology. You can criticize them but they're not ideologically inconsistent.
No.1817555
>>1817546If you're going to bait try harder.
No.1817564
>>1817548>>1817555I know it's probably your literal job to shit up threads here, but can you at least pretend to be actual people.
No.1817589
People literally cannot imagine third-world revolutions succeeding. It's incredible.
No.1817592
>>1817589I'm asking about now. Not 50 years ago.
No.1817596
ortega is a revisionist, comrade-killer asshole, like every chavista. dont fall for dengoid lies
No.1817614
>>1817546>I don't find Christianity and Leftism compatibleGood thing they don't care what you think. Also seriously, look up not only Liberation Theology but the long history of Christian peasant communism, the Diggers etc.
>Also it's surprising that they would side with Gaza (Muslims) instead of being Zionists like Christians in the WestBurger Evangelicals are a unique breed of insane. The vast majority of Christians don't share their delusions.
No.1817616
>>1817596Based so true. I wonder why the CIA tried to kill him so many time. What do you think it was, his revisionism probably 🤯😮
No.1817658
>>1817614If you think Leftism and Christianity are compatible, explain how it's possible (without rewriting the entire foundation of Christianity) to make these things leftist:
- Acceptance of slavery
- Oppression of women
- Obedience towards the Caesar / emperor
- Homophobia
- Not giving a shit about the future cause Jesus is right around the corner and will totally come next week
and so on.
It's utterly incompatible.
It's a good set of rules if you are on top and want your wageslaves to "pay what is due to the emperor" and "turn the other cheeks" instead of doing some organizing and revolution.
Christianity is one of the most powerful anti-left psyops.
No.1817661
>>1817596But he calls israel and Taiwan American aircraft carriers. Very based.
sage and report obvious sectarian baiting No.1817684
>>1817596He's not above criticism but FSLN is still very much based.
They resisted inhuman levels of violence and are still committed antiimperialists
No.1817712
>>1817686>The better question is why people want to make them compatible. To forgive their sins?Because many conclude their faith to socialism. It's not people forcing Christianity to be compatible it's just easy to make it compatible.It's natural to preach social gospel that tells you to have solidarity and aid the poor than prosperity gospel that tells you the homeless are lazy suckers. You see why non-American Christianity has chemistry with socialism and even the diggers and many socialist in the 1900s were Christian socialist.The Sandinistas always had liberation theology even when they were MLs so this isnt about needing sins to be forgiven.
No.1817751
>>1817658>Acceptance of slavery (of the bourgeoisie)>Oppression of (bourgeois) women>Obedience towards the Party>Homophobia (see: Stalin)>Not giving a shit about the future cause Revolution is not coming in this lifetime and is independent from your individual actionsI jest. The reason religion is compatible with Communism is because the former has never been immutable or logically coherent. Christianity in itself is merely a reinterpretation of old myths with a little bit of Jesus hype sprinkled on it. Even the Bible constantly contradicts itself. That's why God is kind and merciful, despite YHWH being originally a god of war and thunder.
No.1817760
Managua is pretty
No.1817763
>>1817553How deep can we fall anarchobros?
No.1817768
>>1817736Pragmatism gang keep pragmatiking everywhere!
No.1817785
>>1817520>t. westoidTake your identity politics somewhere else gringo, Sandanistas have long since become revisionists.
No.1817789
>>1817780dengsisters… how can we ever recover???
No.1817793
>>1817789>>1817780Vietnam is supported both by the west and china. Vietnam is still based. Cope and seethe ;) b:>
No.1817807
>>1817802I just looked up work week in Vietnam:
48 hours (8 hours, 6 days a week) is the legal standard and limit… Unless employer and employee "agree" on overtime.
No.1817820
>>1817793>Vietnam is supported both by the west and china. >Vietnam is still based.Glad you feel this strongly about the fascist Contras and their Sino-American backers :^)
No.1817852
>>1817520>>1817540>>1817548>>1817614le magic invisible sky man, but materialist
No.1818161
>>1817518What an utter shithole this has become.
I hoped somebody could share their insights on that party as it's quite likely that at least one of us has done some 5 hour deepdive into that topic.
Instead it's just a flood of utterly useless shit and insults.
Mods, you need to do something against these well poisoning shills and zero use soyjak brains like
>>1817815 No.1818199
>>1817518If christians believed what they said they would advocate for socialism like their messiah. I guess this particular party sees how the poor should be helped in their bible and want that for themselves as well.
No.1818216
cuba is mostly christian and is socialist, as are the EZLN also christians, gaddafi was an islamic socialist, korea has cheondoists, and so on and on.
middle class reddit atheist "socialists" who seethe in their armchairs because the proletariat and peasants of the third and second world aren't all le hecking enlightened westernised dialectical materialists, who bring up the opiate of the masses quote as if its their equivalent of a bible quote, are missing the entire point
maybe someone in the third world believes in a bunch of spirits and voodoo and whatever, but they're engaged in more real praxis towards establishing socialism in a week than redditors do in your lifetime. i'd much rather fight alongside a filipino commie who is also a christian or a kurdish commie who is a muslim, than a reddit commie who can quote paragraphs about materialsm from memory.
No.1818224
>>1817658>Acceptance of slaveryThe vast majority of Christian denominations and individual believers do not accept slavery. The abolitionist movement in the US was started by Quakers and retained a strong religious bent until the end of slavery. The Battle Hymn of the Republic is a hymn.
>Oppression of womenAgain, depends on the denomination.
>Obedience towards the Caesar / emperor??? Christianity was a firmly dissident movement in the Roman Empire at is foundation. Jesus was considered a dangerous agitator, that's why he was executed.
>HomophobiaCommon throughout the world, including (historically) in secular socialist countries. Did the USSR cease to be socialist when it outlawed buggery?
>Not giving a shit about the future cause Jesus is right around the corner and will totally come next weekBasically no Christians believe this.
No.1818248
>>1818216>the proletariat and peasants of the third and second world aren't all le hecking enlightened westernised dialectical materialistsUnderstanding class struggle form a materialist perspective is now bad thing and the "just gimme welfare, Mr. Sky Daddy Priest" is good?
Why the fuck do you want to let a theocratic caste have so much influence over the masses?
No.1818251
>>1818216This. I would take a Chris Hedges over a Chris Hitchens any day.
No.1818254
>>1818248>Why the fuck do you want to let a theocratic caste have so much influence over the masses?How to tell me you know nothing of the history of Christianity without telling me you know nothing of the history of Christianity.
No.1818256
>>1818216this is pretty retarded, you can do (and should do) both at the same time without being a misanthropic redditor, so please don't start thinking you have to go to church just because people in socialist countries do.
No.1818257
>>1818224You have no clue about Christianity and the views that you think they have are not because of Christianity.
No.1818258
>>1818254What are you talking about? Explain yourself.
No.1818262
>>1818257Whatever you say m8.
>>1818258The clergy is not integral to Christianity. Quakers have no clergy. Are they not Christians?
No.1818265
it is very simple. if you believe liberal atheists are preferable to leftists who happen to believe in a religion, then why are you even on this website?
No.1818266
>>1818265its almost like class is material and religion of any kind isn't…
No.1818273
>>1818265The question isn't
liberal atheist vs. christian leftists
It's
materialist leftists vs. welfare seeking believer "leftists"
How much do you even think you can trust the bunch who is only supporting a cause until another side promises them more gibs?
No.1818275
>>1818262How many quakers are there worldwide?
Most of Christian history is being ruled over by the church or by god-ordained monarchs. Then the enlightenment brought a ton of revolutions and the power was fought out of the hands of the god-ordained rulers.
No.1818278
>>1818266It's almost like religion is ideology that grows around a class basis and is animated by it.
>>1818273>How much do you even think you can trust the bunch who is only supporting a cause until another side promises them more gibs?Materialism doesn't make people immune to that.
>>1818275>Most of Christian history is being ruled over by the church or by god-ordained monarchs.Most of the history of the state is as a tool of reactionary class oppression. I guess the state is always bad then and we should all be anarchists. Religion has a class content, just like the state, and it's that class content that matters rather than its ideological form. I.e. if workers and peasants are galvanized by religion to fight for socialism, then it isn't somehow less socialist because of this.
>Then the enlightenment brought a ton of revolutions The first bourgeois revolution was in England and had strong religious motivations. It preceded the enlightenment by a century, set the basis for bourgeois democracy, and spawned peasant communist movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levellershttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers No.1818284
>>1818281If proletarian class content takes religious form, then does this make it less proletarian?
No.1818285
Also, forgot to add, you guys should read "Society of spectacle", cool book.
Everything is ideology and so on and so on, very dialeticalhttps://files.libcom.org/files/The%20Society%20of%20the%20Spectacle%20Annotated%20Edition.pdf No.1818288
>>1818278Bro, you are talking about a bunch that worship some dude who wants(!) to be worshiped, who considers himself the King of Israel/Jews and who sits on some heavenly throne dishing out genocide against everyone who does not believe hard enough in him.
Which part of that do you consider even remotely leftist?
Just because he said "turn the other cheek" once does not absolve all his other positions.
No.1818293
>>1818273are you really going to get angry if the proletariat and workers in some third world revoltuionary struggle believe in some higher forces at work in some abstract philisophical sense that has no consequential impact, or perhaps even strengthens their drive for revolutionary action?
would you genuinely oppose a socialist revolutionary movement because the average worker doesn't meet the required level of understanding of dialectical materialism?
would you also cut off your entire leg if you stubbed a toe? are you suggesting you would try to prevent socialism, would aid the billionaire class simply because… le workers didnt understand my atheism well enough? are you the first person with a below 50IQ to figure out how to use a computer?
obviously materialist belief is preferable, obviously the magic sky people aren't dictating our daily lives. and it should be the job of the vanguard to educate the less class conscious amongst the proletariat on the matter.
but what you are suggesting is that you as, a so-called material leftist, would try to prevent true revolutionary socialism on the basis that not enough of the workers in your revolution were atheist and materialist enough for you.
to put it in a scenario, imagine if you will, you are in the midst of the Cuban revolution. by your logic, you would've founded your own splinter faction and taken up arms against the vanguard because in your opinion they weren't ideologically pure enough for you on the basis they were largely christians, and so you would've betrayed the Cuban revolution and consequencially aided the American capitalist imperial effort, in the belief that it's the best choice because the real revolution can't happen until all the revolutionaries are atheists.
No.1818294
>>1818288>Bro, you are talking about a bunch that worship some dude who wants(!) to be worshiped, who considers himself the King of Israel/Jews and who sits on some heavenly throne dishing out genocide against everyone who does not believe hard enough in him.You're still missing the point. Your own interpretation of scripture or what Christians ought to believe based on what's in the Bible is irrelevant. In fact what's in the Bible is irrelevant. What matters is whether workers and peasants develop a revolutionary ideology through the lens of religion, and are moved to act on this basis. Religion has no objective content, it can be interpreted in literally any way, and revolutionary forces can and have done so in a revolutionary way. They can and have developed revolutionary ideologies on the basis of religious foundations, and have carried out revolutionary programs on this basis. Christian Communism predates Marxism by centuries. The fact that you personally are unable to derive a socialist meaning from scripture or inspiration to revolutionary action from religion doesn't change the fact that many have and continue to do so. Case in point, from "The True Leveller's Standard Advanced":
<For it is shewed us, That so long as we, That so long as we, or any other, doth own the Earth to be the peculier Interest of Lords and Landlords, and not common to others as well as them, we own the Curse, and holds the Creation under bondage; and so long as we or any other doth own Landlords and Tennants, for one to call the Land his, or another to hire it of him, or for one to give hire, and for another to work for hire; this is to dishonour the work of Creation; as if the righteous Creator should have respect to persons, and therefore made the Earth for some, and not for all: And so long as we, or any other maintain this Civil Propriety, we consent still to hold the Creation down under that bondage it groans under, and so we should hinder the work of Restoration, and sin against Light that is given into us, and so through fear of the flesh man, lose our peace.
<And that this Civil Propriety is the Curse, is manifest thus, Those that Buy and Sell Land, and are landlords, have got it either by Oppression, or Murther, or Theft; and all landlords lives in the breach of the Seventh and Eighth Commandements, Thous shalt not steal, nor kill.
<This Declares likewise to all Laborers, or such as are called Poor people, that they shall not dare to work for Hire, for any Landlord, or for any that is lifted up above others; for by their labours, they have lifted up Tyrants and Tyranny; and by denying to labor for Hire, they shall pull them down again. He that works for another, either for Wages, or to pay him Rent, works unrighteously, and still lifts up the Curse; but they that are resolved to work and eat together, making the Earth a Common Treasury, doth joyn hands with Christ, to lift up the Creation from Bondage, and restores all things from the Curse. No.1818298
>>1818288There is practically no ideology that hasn't been tried to get synthesized with religion. Jesus has practically been a figure of all sorts of movements who claim his teachings are actually in line with their views. The sad part is it only took a few years after Marxist-Leninist states began doing revisionism for them to come back in relevance. Look at Albania before and now. I think its fair to say they'll be staying as long as humans have brains.
No.1818301
>>1818298>I think its fair to say they'll be staying as long as humans have brains.Also should add that most people are retarded and merit extinction, but that's just my view.
No.1818308
>>1818294>>1818293If you do some Religious Socialism, you'll just end up with the political vanguard and the clergy. Two power centers that will try to get dominance, both trying to be the top dog who tells the other where to go as soon as there isn't some external enemy.
Now, who do you think the people will side with?
What can a vanguard party even promise at that point?
This is the reason why all there has been such a strong "action" against priests in the Soviet Union after the revolution. Most of the footsoldiers were Christians, but the Bolshevists knew where the situation will be 15 years from then. Since the clergy knew that as well they fought for their existence against Bolshevists.
Everyone with a brain understands that both sides are mutually exclusive.
Simple incompatibility that can only be resolved one way.
No.1818312
>>1818308ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of anti-religious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.
ARTICLE 125. In conformity with the interests of the working people, and in order to strengthen the socialist system, the citizens of the U.S.S.R. are guaranteed by law :
a) freedom of speech;
b) freedom of the press;
c) freedom of assembly, including the holding of mass meetings;
d) freedom of street processions and demonstrations; These civil rights are ensured by placing at the disposal of the working people and their organizations printing presses, stocks of paper, public buildings, the streets, communications facilities and other material requisites for the exercise of these rights.
The Soviet union would, of course, kill reactionaries. That has nothing to do with what they believed. They fought against the soviet union and its people and where judge by soviet law.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/12/05.htm No.1818313
>>1818284There was a time when that happened but the example is, like, the diggers and levelers. It can be a factor in rebellions. But that was a long time ago in a particular historical epoch and to generalize that and make it universal is an ahistorical and BOURGEOIS conception of history. Today I don't think a few churches here and there contingently on the side of a rebellion have much overall impact on the larger dynamics – and far more often it has been a conservative, corrosive, and overall negative force in most revolutionary struggles.
>>1818293>are you really going to get angry if the proletariat and workers in some third world revoltuionary struggle believeHaving that kind of willfully naive attitude towards religion is a huge mark of a Euro-American mindset in itself. Or at least a product of living in a society that has secularized to a degree unimaginable even 50 years ago. And if you don't live in such a country, then that's a good sign (because the global south is undergoing fairly rapid secularization anyways… the radical religious movements get all the attention but the data seems to be pointing in the other direction). We also two major examples of third-world revolutionary struggles in the 20th century: Russia and China which took on explicitly anti-clerical forms.
No.1818316
>>1818312>The Soviet union would, of course, kill reactionariestoo bad they missed stalin
No.1818318
>>1818312You can cite meaningless laws or you can read some history…
No.1818320
>>1818313>But that was a long time ago in a particular historical epoch and to generalize that and make it universal is an ahistorical and BOURGEOIS conception of historyThere are still groups like the ELN and the Sandinistas that explicitly come from a religious background. Gaddafi's movement was a Islamic socialist movement and that was the 1960s. A lot of these movements are in modern times so i wouldnt rule out that they are in the past.
>because the global south is undergoing fairly rapid secularization anyways… That's not true. You may have seen the Iranian poll that suggest that but that was an online poll and doesn't reflect what is going on in these countries. It is reversing especially as the West stops being the dominant powers around the world and the model to follow. Arab Nationalist have been replaced by Islamist for example.
No.1818327
>>1818319>NO? NO YOU ANNOYING CUNTFUCKS! NOO NO NOOO. HOW CAN YOU EXIST? I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO LOOK AT YOU.You should write a book about "your struggle".
No.1818335
>>1818321>islamic memes are funny.Got an example?
No.1818344
>>1818341I understand you're frustrated with repetitive online interactions. But refusing even a harmless request like Islamic memes and resorting to comparisons with Hitler suggests a deeper negativity.
"The internet is dead" comments are often linked to feelings of isolation and a disconnect from the world. Therapy can be a great resource to help you rediscover the vibrancy of online interactions and find communities that share your interests.
Life can feel pointless at times, but there's always potential for joy and connection. Maybe consider talking to a therapist to explore what might be bringing you down and how to find a more fulfilling path.
Remember, you're not alone. There are people who care and want to help.
No.1818347
>>1818263True.
Although it can be conflicting
No.1818350
>take power in revolution
>get couped by usano glowies
>wait a few years
>win election anyway
im thinking based
No.1818351
I am down with the nikka aguas.
No.1818352
>>1818308>This is the reason why all there has been such a strong "action" against priests in the Soviet Union after the revolution. Yeah because the Russian Orthodox Church was intimately tied to the Russian Imperial State and wielded immense secular power and wealth.
>Everyone with a brain understands that both sides are mutually exclusive.Yes, a revolution in Russia was mutually exclusive with the Russian Orthodox Church as it existed, but that's not the same as being exclusive with religion in general. You are aware that there have been religious movements that attacked the clergy and church hierarchy yes?
>>1818313>to generalize that and make it universal is an ahistorical and BOURGEOIS conception of historyYou're the one generalizing, not me. Religion may play a positive role in revolutionary struggles in some areas, not in others. The only general statement is to insist that it never does.
>Today I don't think a few churches here and there contingently on the side of a rebellion have much overall impact on the larger dynamicsExcept in Nicaragua where the ruling socialist, anti-imperialist party explicitly embraces Christian socialism.
No.1818360
>>1818352>Except in NicaraguaThe Sandinistas were anti-clerical in the past. I realized things change but, man, if you're talking about Ortega as an epic leftist then you're pretty checked out at this point. Strong evidence would also indicate that he's a rapist and a pedophile.
No.1818367
>>1817518>>1817518>What are your thoughts on it?I think you made this thread because nicarauga was in court with germany in the icj today lmao. Le good deed never goes unpunished, don't rock the boat.
No.1818368
>>1818352Explain how these power centers (leftist ruling party and clergy) can be compatible without one simply ruling the other and instrumentalizing it for their own gains.
No.1818369
>>1818352Explain how these power centers (leftist ruling party and clergy) can be compatible without one simply ruling the other and instrumentalizing it for their own gains.
No.1818373
>>1818371The server didn't respond.
No.1818382
>>1818360>Strong evidenceLiterally just one person's testimony.
>>1818366>And she's a batshit New Age ladyThat's fairly common. A lot of south/central Americans mix superficial catholic stuff with whatever random spiritual beliefs they want. Even the protestants are mostly influenced by Pentecostals and believe they have spiritual powers.
No.1818455
>>1818366>batshit New Age lady who talks about demonic spirits trying to destroy the countryumm based?
No.1818591
>>1818366>Bunch of Sandinistas who have turned on OrtegaPost a visible one that isn't a fucking Glowplant. It would be nice to finally encounter one that aims at political power without Washington's back
No.1818595
>>1818318>meaningless laws This is the constitution of the soviet union
No.1818653
>>1818366>Also his wife Rosario is… the vice president. And she's a batshit New Age lady who talks about demonic spirits trying to destroy the country while installing a bunch of metal trees in Managua and a pentagram for the anniversary of the Sandinista revolutionGuess the black liberation theology isn't Christian all of a sudden. Like
>>1818382 says Christianity gets mixed with spiritual traditions in certain regions. Rosario is Christian with a mix of spiritual traditions in Nicaragua like a lot of Christians over there.Quite frankly it's just the opposition trying to defame as being le satanist.
>pentagramThat's a star buddy
No.1818661
>>1818368Explain how they can't. Priests can be communists, and serve the exact same role to a socialist state as they have in other states, i.e. as disseminators of ideology. The only difference would be that this would be a revolutionary socialist ideology justifying the socialist order in religious terms. This is the exact role they played under all previous modes of production.
No.1818696
>>1818661But i want to kill everyone that i dont like! Are you saying that the "communist terror" were just capitalist propaganda to say communists were monsters??!!? Damm this communism thing is boeing and radlib then.
No.1818895
>>1818595So all of history was a lie? The clergy wasn't persecuted and killed during and after the civil war?
No.1818899
>>1818382>>1818653>reactionary, mystic retardation is good because the people who do it are brown socdems from the third worldno, religion is not good because the working class likes it. its *OPIUM*
and no, im no "western radlib". get better arguments instead of ad hominems. im a working class latin american and an atheist. seeing your friends, neighbours and relatives fall into a cult because they have no faith in this shithole is despairing
No.1819027
>>1818899>strawmanits also the heart of an heartless world. People believe plenty of stupid shit, I'd rather focus the fight on actually harmful behavior. Then again, i also understand you'd be more inclined to fight them in a society where its more pervasive and lead more often to justification of bad shit, here the religious people know they cant use it to justify something in the public political space.
Intellectually I have problem with religion as organized power structures consolidating reactionary shit, not as a spirituality people use to comfort themselves or to act humanely.
>fall into a cultyou mean they became religious rather than were born into it ? sad, but that kinda mean a failure to offer a compelling alternative
No.1819029
>>1818895They were not killed because they were religious, they were killed because they supported the white army, they fought against the soviets. Why would the soviet union bother to kill anyone that was religious?
Like, where is the evidence of the USSR killing people because of their religious beliefs? Of course they made atheist propaganda, but that is it. Prove me wrong
No.1819206
>>1818899>no, religion is not good because the working class likes it. its *OPIUM*During Marx's time OPIUM was considered a good medicine that was given to those who feel depressed and those in pain. It was even given to pregnant women and children.
Look it up.
The quote means something different than you think.
No.1819212
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1843/critique-hpr/intro.htmAs long as the people are oppressed, there will be the necessity of some form of religious belief
No.1819239
I really wish mark fisher finished acid communism and killed the hard-line atheism is a necessary component of Marxism meme once and for all
No.1819263
>>1819206>During Marx's time OPIUM was considered a good medicine that was given to those who feel depressed and those in painIt was also known as an addictive and damaging substance in the 1800s, it was not by any imagination thought to be just this good drug, people were not just next level retarded in the past this is childish thinking… Besides these are books being written at the time of the opium wars…
I swear to god you people just spend your time thinking things you want to be true and believing them… jfc it's like dealing with American toddlers..
No.1819270
>>1819263In fact Marx would have literally lived through a opium epidemic in London with regular stories in the daily newspapers he read voraciously of children regularly dieing to overdoses across the workers slums.. ffs..
No.1819278
Even if you want to be like "hurr durr opium's a medicine" it's the dose that makes the poison.
No.1819371
>>1819263He wrote it in 1843.
At that time it was given to people in a less concentrated state, and as syrups and tinctures. Those were the popular methods of intake.
The high addiction waves started later when the concentration increased and people started taking high strength opiates via needles.
The "shit, we need to stop this" was a reaction to the high opioid addictions especially after the US civil war.
>people were not just next level retarded in the past this is childish thinking…We thought asbestos was fine, and CFCs, and radiation water, and lead in gasoline, and so on and so on.
Do yourself a favor and read some history, you'll be surprised how much "next level retarded" things were very common simply because their negative side effects weren't known.
For Marx, Heine and others who compared religion to opium at the time it would have been a different context and the meaning is more or less:
Religion is good against the pain of the world, but you should not rely on it as you'll literally be unable to perceive the pain and it does not solve the source of the problem.
No.1819383
>>1819263Reminds me of people who think pedophilia was accepted not very long ago just because child marriages existed (and weren't even the norm, and were actually looked down upon).
No.1819386
>>1819206>erm communism is compatible with religion because marx actually liked religion because of my interpretation of some epic quoteNo actual analysis here.
No.1819387
>>1819270>>1819371p.s. Cause people always name Opium wars as some kind of evidence that the Chinese knew that it's evil:
It was outlawed by some hyper-reactionary moralist Yongzheng, who also outlawed prostitution and martial arts in the same period around 1730.
During the 18th century you still had big trade of opium in China and later the Portuguese were delivering Opium to China, having a sort of international trade monopoly that was tax revenue and influence for the emperor.
The opium war was not some "le evil poisoning, muh racism", it was simply a military act to destroy the emperor's protectionism and get access to that market.
No.1819388
>>1819386>because of my interpretation of some epic quoteHave you even read the paragraphs around that quote?
Come back when you have.
No.1819392
>>1819388None of it says religion is good dipshit.
No.1819396
>>1819206>>1819386>>1819388Even funnier that they think Marx was somehow pro-opium given that he wrote extensively on the opium trade and its consequences lol.
Opium, a drug to dull the senses, to block out the world. Yeah totally supports it!
No.1819397
>>1819392I have summarized what he said. Why do you even strawman my summary? Like seriously, wtf is this waste of time where you argue against something that nobody said. Are you like some very contrarian autist or what?
>>1819396>Even funnier that they think Marx was somehow pro-opiumWhere did I say that?
No.1819399
>>1819027Lots of PB teens online use religion to carve out some pathetic identity that makes them feel special. The PB in general tend to be the most religious, I suppose it makes sense. Less involved with bourgeois science and the spread of cold hard market relations than the bourgeoisie proper, but incapable of the same revolutionary disillusionment as the proletariat.
No.1819429
>>1819371100% ahistorical.
How did you even find this website?
No.1819476
>>1819387You are full of shit.
Opium War started as a result of the Chinese government destroying all the opium they could in 1839. They fully outlawed it and in fact did consider it poison
<Let us ask, where is your conscience? I have heard that the smoking of opium is very strictly forbidden by your country; that is because the harm caused by opium is clearly understood. Since it is not permitted to do harm to your own country, then even less should you let it be passed on to the harm of other countries—how much less to China!https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/letter-queen-victoria No.1819497
>>1819476He's from the feels school of history do not waste your time.
No.1819525
>>1819476I bet you believe all the "we reduce your rights, because we want to protect you" narratives.
Strange how all the crackdown and hardline positions are always followed by leniency and soon a new wave of legalization.
It's as if the people in power use their power to create an environment from which they profit more.
But, hey, I guess it's easier to swallow all the "We good, they bad. This wise emperor is totally well meaning and utterly benevolent." nonsense.
Go back to licking Bill Gates and Bezos assholes if you are so gullible regarding propaganda coming from power.
>>1819429>>1819497You are just wrong and your understanding of history is secondhand hearsay from 20-something students who make bullshit memes on reddit after they saw bullshit memes on twitter.
inb4 "muh Chinese emperor was soooo great, how can you ever question motives."
No.1819603
>>1819525<n-no you…Anon it's so painfully obvious you dint have even a clue what you're talking about why dig this whole of ignorance and lies, you goy caught out, why not just say; 'yea, I was making stuff up' and move on from this in a constructive manner instead of essentially douling down on being a self-made fantastical moron?This level of ignorance as self inflicted as it is can end at any time, it only takes a simple choice.
No.1819620
>>1819387 Emperor Yongzheng reigned from February 5, 1723, to October 8, 1735.
The Opium Wars occurred from June 1840 to August 1842.
There's a gap of a hundred years in between. It was Emperor Daoguang who dispatched Lin Zexu to ban opium.
Did you come across this text on the English Wikipedia? I couldn't find any mention of Yongzheng's relation to opium on the Chinese Wikipedia or Baidu Baike. However, I did find something similar on the English Wikipedia page for Yongzheng.
On the ”中国鸦片史“ Wikipedia page, there is indeed a mention of an opium prohibition in 1729, but most Chinese people rarely discuss the connection between Yongzheng and the Opium Wars, given the hundred-year gap between them.
I'd like to ask, what does 'Glownonymous' mean? Is it a person or something else?
雍正在位 1723年2月5日至1735年10月8日
鸦片战争 1840年6月～1842年8月
中间相差了一百年，派遣林则徐禁止鸦片的是道光帝
你是在英文维基上看到这段话的吗，中文维基与百度百科的雍正词条我都没有看到他和鸦片的关系，而在英文维基的雍正词条上我看到了类似的
在“中国鸦片史”的维基上确实有提到了1729年的鸦片禁令，但是中国人大部分很少探讨雍正和鸦片战争的联系，他们的年份相差了一百年
我想问问“Glownonymous”是什么，是一个人吗，还是其它的意思
No.1819634
>>1819620>'Glownonymous' mean?It's just users connected through tor.
Jannie faggotry, last days of leftypol, etc etc.
No.1819645
>>1819634 Really?" Glowing." seems to be a reference to law enforcement agencies, don't tease me, your social credit score will decrease because of this.
真的吗？”发光“似乎是一个代指执法机构的梗，别捉弄我，你的社会信用分数会因此降低。
No.1819649
>>1819645It’s just a bunch of petty cope by Pasquale. Basically he’s been spending the last six months or so banning ips and vpns for years at a time, which consequently forces people to use the tor node if they want to post. Thus the labeling of all tor users as “glow” so he can poison the well and dismiss the vast majority of the site as butthurt glowies rather than people he’s banned and censored for no reason who are rightfully pissed
No.1819660
>>1819649We haven't really spoke about it on the board as far as I see but it'd probably an early step on removing the .onion.
Interesting that it's pasquale, that weirdo insta band me on sight, last time I used a Normal IP he banned me for a month for 'spam' after one post.
Seriously something wrong with him, think it's all because he's still mad I called him out as a misogynist in /ISG/, which I mean, he is, but it's an absurdly pathetic thing to get twisted and hold grudges over people he doesn't even know having such an analysis.
No.1819664
>>1819649 Related to internal affairs, well, it might be a bit sensitive.
“Tor“ Alright, I recall it now, seems like it's a software. Let me try to get one.
涉及内政，好吧可能有点敏感
”tor“好吧我记起来了似乎是一个软件，等一下我试着搞一个
No.1819670
>>1819649"Glow" is just a joke and I honestly prefer it over naked IP. Not sure why you think using is is bad.
>>1819660Why would forcing more users to use Tor be a step in getting rid of the .onion?
No.1819671
>>1819660But the onion. Makes us strong
Solidarity forever!
No.1819681
>>1819664Safe travels over Tor, anon. If you have trouble connecting, it is possible your ISP is blocking you from connecting to the relay network. If so, consider using a bridge, which is available in the Tor Browser under the connections tab in preferences. Bridges are used to hide your connections from your ISP, by masking it as a separate program, and this usually allows you to connect.
No.1819687
>>1819664 Okay, I can't post anything on Tor. I won't delve too much into things outside this thread, but maybe I'll ask about what's going on with this particular software in another thread.
I'm going to bed. I have classes tomorrow.
好吧我没法在tor上发东西，我不过多探讨线程之外的东西，或许我会在其它线程问问这个特殊的软件出了什么事
我睡了，明天还有课
No.1819705
>>1819687Leftypol where I am isn't blocked by GFW.
Tor is blocked by the GFW because it's, among other things, an NSA-controlled network.
If you really want to VPN, use V2ray (has Chinese instructions) or Trojan (not secure, but has instructions on Github) and set up a VPS in a European country.
No.1819716
>>1819705>tor is NSA Knew this was the direction you lot would go as soon as anon asked the question.
Autistic freaks who live in a fantasy hell of your own making.
Burgoid.
No.1819846
>>1819603Your guys' evidence is what exactly?
Some letter by some Chinese imperial administrator who didn't even send it to the queen?
And that's your primary source for your historically revisionist narrative.
No.1819914
>>1819846>And that's your primary source for your historically revisionist narrative.A least we have a primary source to use as evidence. What do you have other than your opinion?
No.1820289
>>1820153I've never met somebody so in love with their own ignorance before.
No really, how did you find this website?
No.1820322
>>1820153>it's about power and money, like alwaysYou are right that "power" (i.e national sovereignty) and "money" (i.e. economic policy) played a part. No country wants foreign interests to invade and forcibly control their economy and China should have been able to choose for itself it's own government policies.
But moral reasoning also plays a part in human actions and laws including when it comes to the state allowing addictive substances. That's why they invoked moral reasoning to justified their destruction of the Opium trade. Because it's an important part of humanity.
Whether the Emperor actually believed it or secretly thought opium was fine is besides the point.
No.1820565
>>1818366On god I need to find me a wife like that.
No.1820586
>>1817748>When you become anti-revisionistuygha what the fuck does that have to do with it? Even socdems are aware of it.
No.1821010
>>1820289>No really, how did you find this website?You are the monarchist shilling for the Chinese emperors policy of outlawing shit to then legalize it incrementally to control the market while believing that the moralism is true because some bureaucrat didn't wrote a letter that nobody received.
No.1821013
>>1820322>That's why they invoked moral reasoning to justified their destruction of the Opium trade. Because it's an important part of humanity.Hundred years prior they did exactly that. And then allowed it again, receiving paybacks from those who were granted the privileges.
Think about it:
If your country had outlawed unions with a excuse then allowed it again under government control, and then some time later brought up the same excuse to outlaw unions again… Like do you see what's happening there?
Watch the over regulation then leniency then over regulation then leniency in e.g. vaping. Every repetition of the cycle increases the power of the state and the establishment. After all is said and done you will see the industry be controlled by the same-old-same-old conglomerates and proxies of billionaire investment firms.
No.1821536
>>1821010>the monarchist shilling for the Chinese emperors policy of outlawing shit to then legalize it incrementally to control the market By the same reasoning you are a monarchist shilling for the English Queen's policy of controlling Chinese opium markets.
The main issue was national sovereignty not the specific government type, policy decisions or moral justifications.
>>1821013>Hundred years prior they did exactly that.So what? At least it was the Chinese government deciding it's own policies for it's own people even if it wasn't perfect it's still better than the English empire deciding.
>Every repetition of the cycle increases the power of the state and the establishment.Ok, and? Maybe people should be limited in how they consume addictive and cancerous substances like tobacco or opium. I think it's perfectly reasonable to restrict minors from consuming alcohol and tobacco for example. Maybe we shouldn't let markets completely determine what people consume or why.
>After all is said and done you will see the industry be controlled by the same-old-same-old conglomerates and proxies of billionaire investment firms.The whole point of socialism is to let workers control industries and get rid of conglomerates and billionaires. One day the workers will be directly making those decisions and they will need to use moral reasoning and judgement
You are right that specific moral justifications are very often a ploy for different political actors. Taking the moral justifications at face value doesn't explain the complexity of historical wars.
However you can still agree with those moral justifications despite it not being to only factor at play.
>the industry be controlled by the same-old-same-old conglomerates and proxies of billionaire investment firms. No.1821576
>>1821536>By the same reasoning you are a monarchist shilling for the English Queen's policy of controlling Chinese opium markets.They wanted to make money and justified it by being a benevolent provider of an important medicine.
That's the same level of "we are so good" moralism as was the moralism Chinese emperor.
I'm not shilling either. This sub conversation started because I was simply explaining to some guy that opium wasn't regarding as an evil drug in 1840 in the zeitgeist.
>So what? At least it was the Chinese government deciding it's own policies for it's own people even if it wasn't perfect it's still better than the English empire deciding.How is that even an argument unless you think from a racist perspective instead of a global one.
From a pure Marxist view the British Empire was historically ahead of the Chinese empire (Capitalism, Constitutionalism and ProtoSocdem vs. Monarchy/Feudalism)
If you think that the various people should govern themselves despite being on a less progressive level in socio-historic terms, then you would de-legitimize the global socialist revolution.
>One day the workers will be directly making those decisions and they will need to use moral reasoning and judgement I prefer the workers be educated by a truthful ideology that came from a well informed vanguard party. It's sad how misinformed some people here are when it comes to history.
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