No.1817455
No
No.1817457
fascism wont come back because its tied to wii. liberalism presents many elements leftoids associate to fascism already
No.1817461
>>1817453>overcome other ideologies simply because it thrives on social misery and societal collapseYou mean because Modernity (left and liberal) always ultimately ends up with societal collapse
No.1817462
>>1817461>always ultimately ends up with societal collapseDid I miss all the previous societal collapses somehow?
No.1817470
>>1817461Yes. Civilizations collapse eventually. Our own is no different
No.1817471
>>1817458He wants to nuke Iran so badly.
He's always been a crypto zionist
No.1817472
>>1817458That's just liberalism tho and it's dying.
No.1817473
>>1817457>WiiWhat does Nintendo have to do with this?
No.1817474
>>1817472Liberalism is just transforming into corporate-fascism.
No.1817476
>>1817474So basically fascism but with trans LGBT poc as their SS enforcers
No.1817477
>>1817476Well kinda, instead of persecuting any particular minority it will just be exterminism of the poor.
No.1817480
>>1817477We truly live in the gayest timeline.
No.1817482
>>1817477Cult of slanesh will rule society
No.1817484
>>1817474>implying it's a recent phenomenonliberalism adopted all the useful elements of fascism almost a century ago leftoid
No.1817487
>>1817477>exterminism of the poor<if i make up an -ism you have to take me more seriouslyyou arent saying anything new. the poor perish under capitalism? stop the fucking presses
No.1817494
>Do you believe that on a long enough timeline, religion tends to survive and overcome other ideologies simply because it thrives on social misery and societal collapse?
on a long enough timeline, religion is steadily declining
fundamentalism is a cope response to its decline
also "social misery" and "societal collapse" are vague, un-materialist metrics
No.1817498
>>1817494But Judaism has survived for 3000 years kek.
Christianity 2000 and Islam 1400.
Religion is nowhere near declining tho except for countries that have attempted to combat religion
Like France or china
No.1817501
>>1817498adults are deconverting at a huge rate, the only 'growth' in religion is new births
No.1817502
>>1817498they were able to survive under slave and feudal modes of production because they were specifically created as superstructures for those modes of production
under capitalism, they just become obsolete, barely managing to fit the impulses of the bourgeoisie
No.1817503
>>1817500
But they're not obsolete tho.
Also what makes you think slavery ever ended or will ever end?
No.1817505
>>1817503they are obsolete
>Also what makes you think slavery ever ended or will ever end?capitalism is not ancient rome or the carolingian dynasty, lol
No.1817506
>>1817502Religion has just as much political power in those eras if not more. We're literally commiting a genocide in the middle east because of a bunch of khazar converts have managed to convinced congress that doing so will make their messiah come back
No.1817507
>>1817506I mean there is a religious component to the support for Israel in the US, but that's definitely not the main reason.
No.1817508
>>1817505Capitalism is literally just feudalism 2.0. the proof is that most blackrock shareholders are aristocratic families from the middle ages kek.
No.1817509
>>1817508okay you're a moron
saged
No.1817510
>>1817507Israel serves no strategic or geopolitical benefit. It's actually a liability.
No.1817512
>>1817509>no argumentSaged
No.1817513
>>1817509But that's not wrong. Marxists like Michael Hudson don't believe feudalism ever ended it just got absorbed into capitalism. The rentier class still exists they're just less relevant
No.1817514
>>1817510It serves a benefit for weapons contractors and politicians, Israel spends billions per year on bribing politicians and media figures worldwide.
No.1817517
>>1817502That's exactly OPs point you dumbass. Capitalism will collapse back into feudalism
No.1817521
>>1817453>Will we see a resurgence of fundamentalismNo. But we will start to see more new-age scientology-tier cults and other secular-compatible spiritualism. QAnon was basically this.
>>1817472Every country outside of NK and Saudi Arabian/UAE is liberal-democratic or pretending to be. Not only it isnt dead or dying, but it's been expanding to all corner of the earth at an incredibly fast rate. 60 years ago half the planet lived under undemocratic anti-liberal regimes.
>>1817461You can't collapse if you never elevated yourself beyond trad agrarian ruralism retardation in the first place! Good point!
>>1817498>But Judaism has survived for 3000 years kek.It had to reinvent itself many times during that timelapse and they're a minuscule share of the world population compared to what they used to be, and jews do not influence the world on religious grounds anyway.
I do believe there will always be religious people.
>>1817510>Israel serves no strategic or geopolitical benefitSouth vietnam and afhganistan did not serve any of that either. But they generated lots of money for contractors just by existing, like
>>1817514 said.
No.1817524
>>1817521I guess fascism will be the only solution to get women back into the kitchen then
No.1817526
>>1817521That doesn't prove religion has collapsed. I mean most people practicing today aren't amish. They're completely normal people who simply occasionally pray and attend their local place of worship once a week. My question is will a phenomenon like the clerical order of Iran exist elsewhere
No.1817530
>>1817521Anon, secular countries are undergoing demographic collapse kek
No.1817533
>>1817521And 60 years from now ecological collapse will lead the world back to barbarism. Your point?
No.1817537
>>1817530They're "collapsing" because of the retirement fund/welfare ponzi which make population degrowth an economic threat. Kill all people over the age of 70 and it's not collapsing anymore all of a sudden.
And the lack of birth is starting to affect religious countries too.
>>1817526Religion won't disapear, but the fundamentalism of traditional OP is reffering to will get less and less powerful, instead being replaced by reactionary secular-compatible spiritualisms, less organized.
>>1817533>"the world will collapse because i said it will!" No.1817542
>>1817537>capitalism is sustainableI implore you to refer to the writings of marx
No.1817558
>>1817542Was was clearly a revisionist fascist. Read John Stuart Mill, Robert Owen, and Epicurus, and you basically have authentic socialism. /S
No.1817562
Yes i think Eastern Europe will be overtaken by whatever the Orthodox equivalent of Iranian mullahs are especially as liberalism starts to collapse and geopolitical rivalry intensifies between the Russian block and the NATO block. Since both factions are generally of the same ethnicity religious hatred will be restored as a guiding enemy vs friend distinction.
Africa is also a serious hotspot for religious fundamentalism. Since increasing competition for resources between empires there coupled with impoverishment and urbanization breaking up other forms of identity meaning religious and ethnic wars will dominate Africa's future.
For the rest of the world not really. People might become more conservative but absent geopolitical benefits religious sectarianism simply isn't profitable to uphold because it will detonate your country from the inside. I suspect the wave of Islamophobia happening in India for example to just run its course by 2030
No.1817565
>>1817519https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/27/religion-why-is-faith-growing-and-what-happens-nextThe median age of the global population is 28. Two religions have a median age below that: Muslims (23) and Hindus (26). Other main religions have an older median age: Christians, 30; Buddhists, 34 and Jews, 36. The religiously unaffiliated come in at 34.
Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world – more than twice as fast as the overall global population. Between 2015 and 2060, the world’s inhabitants are expected to increase by 32%, but the Muslim population is forecast to grow by 70%. And even though Christians will also outgrow the general population over that period, with an increase of 34% forecast mainly thanks to population growth in sub-Saharan Africa, Christianity is likely to lose its top spot in the world religion league table to Islam by the middle of this century.
Hindus are set to grow by 27%, and Jews by 15% mainly because of the high birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox. The religiously unaffiliated will see a 3% increase. But proportionately, these religious groupings will be smaller than now because their growth is lower than the increase in the overall global population. And Buddhists are forecast to see a 7% drop in their numbers.
It’s mainly down to births and deaths, rather than religious conversion. Muslim women have an average of 2.9 children, significantly above the average of all non-Muslims at 2.2. And while Christian women have an overall birth rate of 2.6, it’s lower in Europe where Christian deaths outnumbered births by nearly 6 million between 2010 and 2015. In recent years, Christians have had a disproportionately large share of the world’s deaths (37%).
And while the religiously unaffiliated currently make up 16% of the global population, only about 10% of the world’s newborns were born to religiously unaffiliated mothers between 2010 and 2015.
TLDR: Religion in the third world is still common but as westernisation and the internet spread their influence I predict that many people will lose their religion in adulthood. As seen in this article the average age of nonreligious people worldwide is 34.
No.1817566
The term secular country is redundant.
The nature of -this- world is secular or temporal to begin with
The state of being non-secular is to be not of this world.
To the Right, Liberal simply means anyone non-Christian.
Or opposed to totalitarianism.
No.1817568
Countries are secular or worldly entities*
No.1817574
>>1817453What you call "religious fundamentalism" is literally just an imperialist cope for their decomposing economies as the global south moves away.
The upcoming cold war is still going between imperialists and the resistance.
No.1817575
>>1817453>Will religion necessarily be tied to fascism ?It is more likely we'll see totalitarianism than theocracy.
>Can there be a religious clerical order government that isn't necessarily fascist.Hardcore religious trads view Fascism as secular rubbish anyways.
>Similar to what happened to IranWhat happened to Iran wasn't that surprising to see.
Do we expect trad Catholicism to resurge in the West?
No.1817585
I hate people who buy into the language of the most hardcore clericals and traditionalists about the word secular.
If people understood the true meaning of that term secular, they'd realize how outlandish this complaint about things of secular or temporal or mundane nature is.
Originally, secular simply meant the things and places of this World temporarily and as of now as opposed to Heaven or the Clergy. That means every country in this world is technically a secular entity – this isn't Heaven or the Church – all secular professions were those outside of the clergy and every other building besides the cathedrals and churches, secular considered everything that was political or tied to this world (including kings and lay people).
So to complain about things being secular is ridiculous, first off the majority of the population consists of lay people, secondly the nature of secular includes everything temporarily, and in reference to the religion the estate of the clergy itself. The nature of all these things are secular, what is being prompted asked is how much people are willing to give Church predominance over everything and how much they will sacrifice their lives for Heaven.
But what people argue about is mostly secular issues: esp. the rightwing is all about carnal and mundane things like their race, nationalism, the state of the economy, heritage, the preservation of their countries – things of this world and not about getting to Heaven.
People are confused because they confound secular with secularism (the idea of religious tolerance or abstaining from). It is true, that secular and secularism are interrelated terms, but they're also profoundly different. When we talk about the secular, we simply talk about everything in this worldly plane and all the places and countries in the world – because the secular accounts for everything of this worldly inheritance and temporal happiness, whereas the ecclesiastical is about the Clergy and Heaven.
No.1817590
>>1817453>>1817458Both of you are still stuck in the 2000s. You'd maybe have had a point two decades ago, but not now.
>>1817521This anon is correct when it comes to the OP topic. Most statistics on this are skewed by the definitions of "religiosity" and by not including a "spiritual but not religious" category. What we're actually seeing is the collapse of institutionalised religion where the Abrahamic world is starting to resemble places east of the Indus and south of the Sahara, where mish-mash, non-discrete and syncretic folk spiritual beliefs dominate.
No.1817673
In Europa? No. In the US, it was never gone, although the new religious right are all MAGA, and not compareable to the religious necons of the Bush era.
In China, South Korea and Japan there are some esoteric cults operating with high numbers, but I don't they will come to power, maybe in Japan.
There are some evenglical cults around Bolsonaro types, but most Christian movements in Latin America were largely left-wing.
In Israel, maybe, but it's mostly racism rather than religious zealotry. Super religious Jews do not like the Zionist state.
Arab world, it's a mess but of the relgious sectarianism was based on Western steering and wheeling their proxies, no matter their association.
Africa, no fucking clue. I think American type Evangelicals have gained some influence there.
The Russo-Ukraine war is concerning. At this shit goes on, both sides work with more and more religious connotation, that they are fighting satanic forces and all that - it even led to a schisma in the Orthdox Church. It's pretty crazy.
No.1817728
Fareed Zakaria talking about secularism in America and the religious revival quality that Trump rallies have taken this year. I think he's fairly smart as far as American T.V. talk show hosts go.
My take: urbanization, modernization, and improvements in technology is the material basis for the weakening of religion, and in response, Evangelical Christians came to re-theologize essentially secular concepts (politics) which was successful as a short-term political strategy in alliance with the Republican Party, but which paradoxically contributed to the hollowing out of religion's spirit and mystery. Part of this also explains why Christians who are even more ultra-conservative have been converting to Latin Mass traditional Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy – essentially a reaction to Evangelicalism hollowing itself out of substance and morality and becoming a more or less secular vehicle for "vulgar" politics (but I've got bad news if they think the Eastern Orthodox Church isn't disgustingly corrupt). The house is collapsing in on them, in other words, but bereft of any ideas about how to build a new one, they've opted to try and find their way back into an even older one.
>>1817506>Religion has just as much political power in those eras if not more. We're literally commiting a genocide in the middle east because of a bunch of khazar converts Well, again, re-theologization of essentially secular, man-made concepts like the nation-state. What's interesting is that there are parallels at the same time in Israel as there has been in the U.S. and in Islamic countries with the decline of secular nationalists for religious organizations like Hamas. I think it's also interesting to contrast that to the Jewish equivalent of "old believers" in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods of Jerusalem who try to live like their ancestors in 19th century Lithuania, don't use the internet, don't serve in the army, and have a difficult relationship with the state and Zionism as a political project. Then the Israeli state needs these people's sons to serve in the army, so the state starts to theologize itself more in a kind of synthesis, but nevertheless many in the ultra-Orthodox community see this as a threat.
>>1817530>Anon, secular countries are undergoing demographic collapse kekUrbanization leads to both secularism and falling birth rates. I think there's a way to reverse it but it would take some "de-urbanization," but which necessarily has to involve investment and economic development of rural areas and smaller cities to slow down the huge metropolises from sucking up the population. (I actually suspect China has been trying to do something like this.)
>>1817714<they are fighting satanic forces>They genuinely are thoPatriarch Kirill recently declared that pacifism is a heresy. Jesus Christ reportedly returned and landed in Moscow and was immediately executed. Also an old joke: a prole walks into an Orthodox church and tells the priest that God spoke to him. The priest says, "God? In Russia? Don't be ridiculous." I think it can be reasonably said that Putin is a true-believing Orthodox Christian though (a thief and a criminal).
No.1817741
Part of this too is, like, what actually is religion? Or what's the purpose of it? Really all this stuff is made up by people and can't be separated from politics and the world. People created God, not the other way around. There's no God other than what exists in people's minds, and while the theology is ultimately nonsense, the social organization it attaches itself to is not (a lot of atheists, particularly the Reddit kind, don't take this part seriously, because many of them are not materialists). It's a mix of philosophy, food, a way of life in other words. What religion is famous for is holding some invalid self-evidence as constant, such as “God/Allah is perfect and the Bible/Quran is true," to form a self-consistent logic loop, such as "because the Quran is true/Allah said this… women should dress like ancient Arabs and eat no pork" as if that has nothing to do with the geographical influences of living in a desert (veils help lower body temperature by protecting against sunlight, heat, and dust) or inheriting backward technology when it comes to productivity (tip: if you castrate male pigs then you remove the boar taint that makes pork edible).
Which is why you tend to see more religiosity in rural areas where church/mosque/temple fills a social function, and why the Amish or ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities avoid technology and modernization. To go back to Evangelicalism in the U.S., there's a long trend of Christianity mixing with American nationalism and right-wing politics and mystifying it as if what politicians say carry holy writ. Hence the Trump Bible™, where the Declaration of Independence and the Pledge of Allegiance are included in the Bible alongside portraits of Trump who can't cite a line of scripture. This creates dissonance, but they've found a way around this: Trump is like King Cyrus, a divinely appointed Pagan hero, flawed, but divinely mandated and whose words have prophetic merit. Therefore, Trump losing the election is equivalent to foiling God's plan. Which is why we need to be ready to "fight," lest Providence is thwarted. But don't worry… because Judgement Day is right around the corner, and you can rest assured that you'll be fast-tracked to Heaven – no fear at all no matter what you do.
BTW: Clip from an Israeli movie about a guy who opens a technology store in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood and becomes a target by Jewish fundamentalists.
No.1817744
>>1817714Wow that picture really proved your point
No.1817765
>>1817494>on a long enough timeline, religion is steadily decliningI wish that were true.
No.1817808
>>1817457Thank fuck the wii u was a failure. We'd all be under nazi rule by now otherwise
No.1817822
>>1817741Yes, all things are religious.
Religion is just the name we give to the social totality we exist in.
>trump cant cite scriptureI think whats interesting though is that like you say, he is the most christian leader whilst objectively being faithless. But this is like the pharisees vs jesus. The pharisees were scripture nerds who killed anyone who broke the rules, but jesus as the free spirit of god showed how law does not refer to law, but its own exception
Think for example of the starving child stealing bread - the law's exception here is the true law.
So trump's unchristian attitude shows what christianity is in its own constitutive and spontaneous meaning - nationalism and whatnot. Thats why when muslims complain about the west it makes sense they dont just talk about "white people", but the culture of christianity itself
Also, a better movie about jewish magic is "Pi" by aranofsky.
No.1817831
>>1817517>capitalism will collapse back into feudalismthis board is lost, holy shit
why am i still here?
No.1817841
>>1817453The rise of e-Catholics is intertwined with things like, the search for the 'natural and human' diet, sleep schedule, etc. Like have you noticed how popular it is now, to justify lifestyle theories by saying 'this is what humans are nautrally geared towards'?
People have begun turning to religious fundamentalism and related practices (e.g. semen retention) because under capitalism, we are all always compelled to do things we do not want to do. Alienated from our labor and the means of production, we can sense that the compulsion to work is a foreign impulse planted in us. People are trying to replace this alienated impulse with something from within. Whether that is a spiritual adherence to the tendencies of 'human nature' (something we are constantly researching, redefining, and discovering), or to a religious order that just feels human and natural.
No.1817940
Fundamentalism is bad. But there are plenty of liberal/leftist religious people out there such as myself. Have you heard of liberation theology?
No.1817964
>>1817849These retards are acting like 'the caveman diet' means raw steak every day
No.1817968
at this point it would actually be an improvement
No.1817970
>>1817964Caveman diet would be more like intermittent fasting with nuts and water and occasionally steak once a week
No.1817972
>>1817940How do you work that out and what religion do you follow
The only way I can see this working is if you disregard all the traditions of the church and go back to early gnostic teachings
No.1817980
>>1817972every religion has progressive currents
the secret behind every successful religion is the ability to adapt
No.1817994
>>1817980Each religion adapts differently.
Islam has barely changed since it's inception and it's moral rigidity is what makes it incredibly strong while Judaism has evolved so many times it's barely recognizable and it's ability to adapt to every societal current makes it survive easily
No.1817998
>>1817994The only reason you think Islam has barely changed is the Saudi Wahhabism glowop. Progressive Islamic scholars were once the centre of the civilised world
No.1818007
>>1817510its embarrassing to see such a moronic statement go unchallenged, it betray a fundamental ignorance of imperialism and the importance of the colonial state of israel for the US empire geopolitical interests
having a whole settler country thoroughly integrated with the empire in the region that is the biggest producer and exporter of oil, that is on the crucial maritime route between europe and asia, that can serve as a forward base for intervention and is a constant threat for the arab states, that is literally cutting the arabs land route in two and constantly causing fbi.gov to prevent pan arabism, that is a major intelligence asset for the area…
yes israel is a fucking major geopolitical asset for the US, just look at a fucking map
No.1818013
>>1817453crisis and people loosing hope and confidence in the future breed religiousness
but capitalism and liberalism destroy it
so eh, who knows. The long term tendency should be the decline of religions, but the fucked up world might delay the process indefinitely
No.1818036
>>1818007The US has basing rights in half the countries in the middle east anyway though. If it weren't for Israel they would probably have even more.
No.1818078
>>1817498>Judaism has survived for 3000Rabbinic Judaism is just barely older than Christianity.
No.1818140
I support religious fundamentalism. We need to accelerate. We need to tear down all the traditions of bourgeois order. All that's solid must be dissolved, deterritorialized, reterritorialized. Religious fundamentalism is a symptom of the fraying of the hypermodern (neo)liberal world system. It is helping destroy and shatter that system and challenge its ontological and epistemic foundations. Watch as our great American empire pursues the forever globewar against Islam. Intensifying the diffusion of new weapon technologies and the dynamics of economic disintegration and retooling. Remember Mao's dictum, when there is chaos under heaven the situation is favorable. In the words of Nietzsche, peace and friendship with Islam and death to systemic Christianity and modern nihilism which are thoroughly bourgeois. We gotta pull the pillars of the temple down and if religious fundamentalism is also doing that then its a good thing.
No.1818228
>>1818140>We gotta pull the pillars of the temple down and if religious fundamentalism is also doing that then its a good thing.Most religious fundamentalists are used as battering-rams for regime change, most notably Islamic fundamentalist groups like ISIS.
No.1818247
>>1818228Idealism. Islamist groups have different ideologies, different allegiances, some are useful to our cause some aren't. Simple. But you can't deny the amazing success Islamic groups have had in causing havoc for the US of A. This begs further analysis and study. We need to research and dialogue with these people more. We shouldn't be like the retarded Mexican leftoids who turned their noses at Zapata only to end up getting killed off by federales. Religious fundamentalism is an opportunity and potential ally. It represents the new dynamic tensions of the globe system. We can't afford to ignore it.
>>1818233Iranian commies helped write the Islamic Republic's constitution. They only got purged during the Iran-Iraq war when the MEK sided with Saddam and the IRP decided to purge all leftists by association. Lets face it if we were in the same situation we would have done the same and there are no shortage of MLoids on this site who'll defend Lenin and Stalin for behaving in exactly the same way. Iran is the engine of chaos in the Middle East. Let bygones be bygones. Let bad blood be bad blood. Who cares about a couple old leftists anyway? Kantian bastards. We need a new relationship. Negri was right. Iran was the first postmodern revolution. We must learn from it or suffer the same fate simple.
No.1818264
>>1818247the MEK are zionists and saddam was a proxy of the us in that war
No.1818295
>>1818036basing right in an arab muslim country like saudi arabia that look like its shifting its alliances and is pursuing its own agenda despite being one of their center of influence since decades is not the same as your personal colonial pet project used as bulwark against everyone else in the region
case in point : none of their "allies" in the area allowed them to use their bases to go strike the houthis
No.1818300
>>1818247>They only got purged during the Iran-Iraq war no, plenty of commies got purged before that
No.1818558
>>1817994>Islam has barely changedMost delusional thing posted in the thread. Islam, it's practice and culture changed so much between it's inception, golden age and now it's basically a different religion entirely.
>>1818140>Watch as our great American empire pursues the forever globewar against Islamlmfao it's over uygha muslims arent the center of attention anymore it's communism, "globalists" and "woke" now. The US empire litteraly work with these guys no problem since the cold war.
No.1818617
>>1818558>communism is the new global enemy lmao your 40 years too late
No.1818619
>>1817994This is blatantly not true btw even in MENA. You have all these intense and very lively debates about transgenderism, slavery, child marriage, war, banking system, etc. Only an orientalist or a fundamentalist thinks that a religion never changed.
No.1818622
>>1818140+1 from Tehran brother inshallah we will kill all the Bakrids and turn the Arab world into a gigantic captagon factory in the name of the Ahlul Bayt
No.1818660
>>1818617The west is agitating about China for a reason anon.
No.1818687
>>1818660If you are old enough to remember they were Japan bashing in the 90s too. So what? What does the fact that they hate China have to do with religious fundamentalism? How does it invalidate anything I've said. China is a country. Radical Islam is a political force inflicting defeats on the world's largest global empire. That's the important fact to underline here.
No.1818789
>>1817849Don't get me wrong, I agree with those sorts of things, but then there's always some more extreme thing that justifies itself with some fringe anthropological theory, like humans being adapted to only eat raw meat like
>>1817964 mentioned, and the ever more ridiculous grifts churned out by health influencers online like picrel.
My point is that under capitalism, people become obsessed with discovering what compulsions or 'ways' come naturally to humans in the hope of replacing the alien compulsions forced upon them.
No.1818801
>>1818789>discovering what compulsions or 'ways' come naturally to humans in the hope of replacing the alien compulsions forced upon themhow is this a bad thing?
No.1818809
>>1818801Well I don't think it does a whole lot to solve the real problem. Eating better or sleeping more can treat some of the symptoms of having a job, but nothing is going to make you feel less alienated from your labor. Nothing is actually going to make having a corporate job less bad, and I think a lot of people who occupy themselves with treating the symptoms still won't even entertain the idea that the entire world-system they inhabit might be evil and wrong.
No.1818817
>>1818687>Radical Islam is a political force inflicting defeats on the world's largest global empireyou fucking what ? no. In fact radical islam is very useful to the empire as proven by their very long history of collaboration.
The defeats you could associate with "radical islam" are a lot more about national liberation and anti imperialist struggle.
On the other hand, china is inflicting very real defeats to the empire through their economic policies of real global development and alternatives to the west order.
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