[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]

/dead/ - Post-Left

Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password (For file deletion.)
Join our Matrix Chat <=> IRC: #leftypol on Rizon
[ Return / Go to bottom ]

File: 1714667472433.jpg (45.99 KB, 900x600, 2-human-evolution-science-….jpg)

 No.5155

Genuine question from a none communist/anarchist.
first, I sympathaise with those two ideas, I really do. I have a burning passionate hatred for all the negative aspects of humanity, from greed to sadism.
I'm not very well read on anarchism or communism (the likes of marx and even hegel never interested me), so I'm mostly going by personal observation. from what I understand communists believe that money (capitalism) corrupts the human being and that by removing the cultural meme of capitalism, communism would florish. at least in simple terms, correct?

whenever I engage in chatter about this topic, eventually it comes down to human nature. almost all far leftists believe some form of the blank-slate. I don't. I never understood why this idea is taken seriously at all. isn't it obvious that a lot of human bias is hardwired into us from birth rather than influnced by enviornent?
especially the more basal desires and behaviours like greed? do you really believe that money is what corrupts people rather than that they're born greedy? and if you're a communist/anarchist that doesn't blieve in the blankslate, how do justify what you believe?

 No.5156

File: 1714667760783.jpg (349.83 KB, 2543x2807, 1681870944915.jpg)

>>5155
I mean yeah, people are born greedy to some extent but they're also born generous and altruistic, humans exhibit a wide range of traits which can be endorsed or discouraged by their society. Will communism get rid of all greedy people? I think it will reduce their number but of course not, but those people will be able to do far less harm to society and other people. Communism doesn't rely on altruism anyway except in the most broad sense, people don't have to demonstrate that much altruism when society is built in an altruistic and egalitarian way.

 No.5157

>>5156
There are definitely people that are more greedy and selfish than others. but I think the problem is that there exists no society that ever succuseflly managed to punish enough of the negative behaviour.
capitalism is the worst, because it easily rewards greed and cruelty. but it's not like the sociopathic individuals would dissapear in a communist society. their behaviour would still manifest in other more subtle ways.
and nevermind the average person, I think that even the average person isn't good enough.

>Communism doesn't rely on altruism anyway except in the most broad sense
I feel like altruism should be a core tenant. if communism isn't explicitly about altruism then what's the point?

 No.5158

>>5157
Well no communist would say that communism will get rid of all negative traits from humanity forever. Communism is likely not even the 'final form' of society, and we will probably progress beyond it at some point to something we can't conceive of now.

If sociopathic people are forced to act in 'more subtle' ways is that not a net benefit since they clearly must be causing less harm?

>I feel like altruism should be a core tenant. if communism isn't explicitly about altruism then what's the point?

The point is everyone enjoying a better standard of living and freedom from exploitation, not everyone patting themselves on the back for what great people they are. That's christian morality, where the evils of this world should and can be overcome simply through individual generosity, but as we've seen this model is an abject failure. To build a better society we need to build better systems not simply strive to be 'better people'.

 No.5159

>>5155
>isn't it obvious that a lot of human bias is hardwired into us from birth rather than influnced by enviornent?
yes, but pretty much always in ways which leave enough scope for social engineering. take a gameboy, for example. a gameboy also has a large number of limitations hard-wired into the design. nevertheless, you can do basically anything with it if you think hard enough about how to achieve it within those limitations. a gameboy is thus also a blank slate.

it suits a small number of people to pretend that the limitations aren't there (usually because they're too lazy to understand them, rather than because they pose problems for their ideals), but it suits a much larger number of people to pretend that those hard-wired limitations make it categorically impossible to do things that - conveniently - they don't want you to do anyway.

 No.5160

>>5159
hmm… interesteing perspective.
hacking one brain is hard enough, but how do you handle an operation that needs to scale over countless brains with varying human cultures?

 No.5161

>>5158
"subtle" in the sense that they get better at hiding and blending and as a result induce more damage.
sort of like going to an armsrace against a constantly evolving virus.

 No.5162

>>5161
Well nonetheless it seems a lot harder to exploit others when the economy is centrally planned and/or worker controlled and nobody is able to own the MOP directly. I mean I'm not gonna say it's impossible people could find a way to siphon wealth into their pocket but certainly I doubt that anyone would be able to amass billionaire levels of wealth without anyone else noticing, or even hundred-millionaire.

Communism would also help with other kinds of antisocial behaviour since for example the primary reason people stay with abusive partners is economics. Anyone would be able to move out on their own in communism so this would present much less of an issue.

 No.5163

>>5156
i'm glad the dog girl came back :)

 No.5166

>>5155
>>5155
>I have a burning passionate hatred for all the negative aspects of humanity
That's your first problem. Morality is a mental illness.
>whenever I engage in chatter about this topic, eventually it comes down to human nature. almost all far leftists believe some form of the blank-slate
1. This isn't a leftist board.
2. Human nature is made up, there is no "blank state."
>born greedy
A geneticist has joined the chat.

Greed is a natural hoarding behavior in a competitive market but once you get rid of this constant threat of bankrupcy you stop caring really, money is just paper. We're born greedy as much as we're born sad or angry or horny.

 No.5167

>>5166
I doubt OP is still reading this.

 No.5168

>>5156
>they're also born generous and altruistic
This is no better than saying people are born greedy. At least the Marxists admit that our behavior is shaped by the social environment we are in, even though they often cling to morality just as much as the next guy.

 No.5169

>>5168
The point is that 'human nature' includes the possibility for a wide spectrum of contradictory traits.

 No.5172

>>5169
"Human nature" is a term made up by philosophers who do not actually know how real human beings work. These talks about the human nature are pointless. The max Aristotle was able to discern was "Humans are capable of reason." Which is, like, almost nothing. And that still does not include people with intellectual disabilities, even though it is true otherwise.

Altruism, like greed, is nurtured through society, there is nothing "innate" about greed or altruism other than some basic psychological mechanisms that give rise to hoarding or generosity, which by themselves are not greed and altruism. Say, you're hungry. And you are given lots of food. You overeat a little. Then you get used to the constant flow of dopamine you get from eating food. And that's how you become glottonous. Glottony is the result of lots of internal and external factors, and saying that glottony is innate is confusing cause and effect and does not take into the account the environment a person is raised in.


Unique IPs: 4
[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / siberia / edu / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM ] [ meta / roulette ] [ cytube / wiki / git ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru / zine ]
[ Return / Go to top /